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  • Writer's pictureCraig Norris

Cinematography and World Building with Indie Film Makers Daniel Brooks & Edward Williams

Episode 64 - With host Craig Norris and guests Daniel Brooks and Edward Williams.
First Broadcast on Edge Radio, 2nd February 2024.


Join me in this week’s episode as I chat with Daniel Brooks and Edward Williams, two talented film makers who are working on a new indie film project. They share their insights, challenges, and inspirations behind their creative process. We also dive into the topics of cinematography and world-building and explore how they use these elements to craft compelling stories. To learn more, check out the links below to some of the ‘Film Courage’ interviews we referenced. This episode is a must-listen for anyone who loves film and wants to discover the secrets behind the scenes.




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TRANSCRIPT

This is an AI-generated transcript of the audio and it may contain errors. We may update or correct this transcript in the future. Please contact us if you have any questions about the information in this transcript. The audio is the official record of this episode.


CRAIG

All right. Hey, you're listening to media mothership here on Edge Radio, 99.3 FM. I am Doctor Craig joined by, you know, I've been trying to think of pronouns, titles, titles to afford my two wonderful guests. Let's call them cinnamon, maestro Daniel and. You know Franken. Photographer Franken, I'm trying to combine Frankenstein and cinematographer Franklinton grapher, so maybe, like Drack director, direct director and Frank Innography. OK, let's not mess around. You should.

DANIEL

Try this again, but on Halloween.

EDWARD

Can we edit that out or?

CRAIG

To what we're doing is immersing ourselves into these topic, which is filmmaking. So I have two fantastic film makers in today, Daniel and Edward.

DANIEL

Hello. Hello.

CRAIG

Daniel Brocks and Edward Williams.

DANIEL

Indeed, I am here you are there and they are in there.

CRAIG

Yes. Wait, it's amazing how technology works when you're explaining it to cave people, I guess that.

DANIEL

Trapped in a tiny little box.

CRAIG

Kind of blocks. So we are streaming on Twitch and YouTube potentially. We we have. I don't know, man like I came. In here an hour before. To set up and I you know. Like I'm I'm going. How much? Time do I. Have left because nothing was working and. Yeah. So feel free to make a chat. I think that's how the stream is describe. People to do things on. Online, make a chat, leave a chat, drop a chat.

DANIEL

And potentially discern whether or not you can actually. Do that on those platforms.

CRAIG

And if you. We are also on listening live on Edge radio so you can jump on edge radio dot.

Speaker 5

Org dot AU.

CRAIG

On the website and listen to us on that website and have the YouTube app or the Twitch up at the same time. So you'd be able to get audio through that.

DANIEL

I have not done it that way before. I'm gonna. Do that next week.

CRAIG

You know, or if you've got an FM system tuned into 99.3 FM Hobart, you have to be living in Hobart though, and you can. Listen to us. There. So that's part of how you can be.

Speaker 6

Meeting with us.

CRAIG

On media mothership, we explore everything in and around the world of media, mainly how it disrupts perverts, changes our view of the world around us. We've got two culprits in that are proponents of.

DANIEL

Disrupting yes of disrupting things and creating havoc and chaos.

CRAIG

Of that of that manipulation, right? Yeah.

EDWARD

I prefer the term evolution.

CRAIG

Well, yeah, one person's well, one person's freedom is another person's gaol. Is that the phrase?

DANIEL

Something like that, but I would like to say that one person's disruption is disruption and the other person's. Option is disruption for somebody else.

CRAIG

True, I wonder if there's a positive term, like one person's enrichment enrichment. One persons kind of invention, one persons evolution. As you're saying. Eureka moment.

EDWARD

Very good.

CRAIG

So what we're going? To be doing on today's show is unpacking. Still making I had the great pleasure with Full disclosure of being a participant on your art leaders project. Hmm. Where I got to draw.

DANIEL

Ohh was.

Speaker 5

Well, like ohh well.

Speaker

Yeah, it was.

CRAIG

You you've moved on to another one since then.

DANIEL

Oh no, we haven't at all. But no, I do remember. You were indeed there.

CRAIG

So so fun about having you guys in is that you're really kind of got. That wonderful DIY. Motivation and for me, I I really wanted to talk about how you. Guys pull it. Off every time, and I think it can inspire people to think you. Know if these guys can do. Maybe I can give it a.

DANIEL

Go. Yes, everyone has a bit of big. Love in them.

CRAIG

He love, yeah, big love. And of course that term. Grew out of one of the other projects. You were doing so wonderful. Kind of.

DANIEL

Originally inspired by a strange person who accosted a classroom that I was in and.

CRAIG

Yes, yes. So a lot of your work is based on real life. Experiences this will be. The 3rd or 4th.

DANIEL

A third film? Yeah. Third film. Yeah, that you're.

CRAIG

Currently in production, yes, yeah, and yes, I was brought in to do a a small piece drawing upon my own experience, I guess as a a previous lecturer at at a number of different universities. And there was a lot of fun. It was. It was great. Before I jump into that, I was thinking I I wanted. Because we were talking about what we're gonna chat about. Yeah, of course. I can debrief about my own experience, but I wanted to. I was thinking about that about, you know. What what my experience was like, and there were two film clips I came across or interviews with other.

EDWARD

People. Yes, yes.

CRAIG

So I was gonna play just the start of these two interviews and then get us to jump in to talk. About, you know. The way they're. Explaining it making sense to us or.

DANIEL

Not. Yes, that's a good idea.

CRAIG

Because the first one, because there were two experiences I had on. Set one was the mechanics of being on the set with filmmaking and the other one was kind of the the script and story and that term. Well, building, yes. So I want to kind of unpack those two ideas. Through through my experience as well as your you guys as the puppet. Masters the the, the the.

EDWARD

Ohh puppet Master is a bit of a bit of a harsh facilitators, facilitators of the creativity of other people.

CRAIG

The yes. Exactly, yes, much constructive. So this first.

EDWARD

Through subtle manipulation.

CRAIG

Yeah. And and I think much. Needed guidance, direction. Encouragement. OK, so the first clip is from a YouTube channel called Film Courage. Yeah. Has a lot of great interviews, cinematographers and so forth, and directors. This one is interviewing. I Freedman, sorry if I mispronounced that. Who's an entrepreneur? Entrepreneur. Innovator cinema technologist. Ohh thinking those can be applied to you as well? Certainly entrepreneur, innovator and technologist. And what he's doing is talking about his own experience with tech. In particular, so and and all of this when I was listening to what I mean full of of yourself. Ohh, so let's let's listen to to. Open up with. A really good question, which will then. Go into so.

Speaker 7

What do you love more cinematography or the gear and tech that brings cinematography to life?

Speaker

OK.

CRAIG

So this is a good question. So she. Her question first question is what do you like more cinematography or the?

DANIEL

Yeah. Yeah. OK.

CRAIG

We can listen to answer first. Or Edward, you wanna jump? In oh oh.

EDWARD

No, let's, let's, let's hear. More of it. See where it goes.

Speaker

All right.

Speaker 6

Great question, you know. I've gone back and forth with that several times through my life because I started off as a cameraman, as a camera assistant, camera operator and eventually a DP, and I really thought for a long time that that was what I loved and that was what I was most interested in. But. I also really love the technology and I got to say that at some point I think I discovered that the technology and what's involved in that is more perpetually interesting to me. Look, there I I think that all cinematographers are either well, in order to be a good cinematographer or the best. The photographer you need to be part artist and part plumber. And if you're too much artist. Then and you don't have the technical chops that you're going to have problems if you're. Too much plumber? And you're just technical and you don't have artistic chops. There will be problems.

CRAIG

So plumber and artist.

DANIEL

Right. Well, I I I think that's a very apt way of describing it. I would describe myself as not having any plumbing skills. So I guess you've got. Plumbing skills.

EDWARD

Yeah. Well, it's, it's almost as if you've gone forward in time and interviewed me and then claimed that this is another person. So. Ohh, dear. Well, I I think to start. I I started off wanting to be an actor and I did quite a lot to get into that acting sort of sphere, unfortunately. I wasn't being cast in anything, not not local shorts. Nothing. I was getting no traction and so I thought. Ohh. OK, well, if in order for me to to get some acting experience, I have to make my own movies and and then I realised that I couldn't. Star in or act in any of the movies that I made because that was just too many roles at a time. So I did settle into filmmaking at a very sort of from the creative point of view. And so my mindset was creative. Of technical. And then as I got more equipment as I got more experience, the things that interested me in filmmaking or the things that I'm starting to become more interested in now. Nonsense like ohh aperture 2.2. Yes. Oh oh, why would you need an aperture of 2.2? That's ridiculous. You only need 2.8, you know, like sort of and. And so then that comes into. Ohh I've got. I've got a budget to work with. I've got this amount of money to to spend on gear and or I could spend all this money. Me on this to achieve that, but why would I do that when I don't need that option? Would that occurs and so you you I got into this rabbit hole of just researching equipment. And looking at how some microphones cost X amount of money and the microphones that I was interested in cost. A A lot less for a tiny fraction of lower quality. You know the diminishing returns and this this is a roundabout way of saying that I've found myself more interested in researching gear and acquiring gear and seeing what that. Gear is capable of and exploring the gear and the the actual creative side of it is has become. Somewhat secondary for me, and I believe I can get away with that personally because I have a strong director in the form of Daniel Brooks. He, yes, who who sort of takes on that more creative role than I.

Speaker 6

I mean.

DANIEL

Do. I would even say that. Sort of relieve not relieved you of duty, but sort of taking the burden of that. Onto myself a bit more so that you can care more about tech and.

EDWARD

Equipment. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you've also given me the opportunity to actually realise what I get out of it.

CRAIG

So again, that that idea of balancing the plumber and the artist kind of drive. They're they're there. In various percentages, but it's interesting to hear sometimes. You'll get pulled more into. Two questions of the plumbing. Yeah, other times the art.

DANIEL

Yeah. Now, granted, I did say I was not a plumber at all, but I I think there is a plumbing involved in organisation and that is kind of a technical skills and that's probably the technical skill that I actually do have.

CRAIG

Well, how's the plumbing been on the? New film. So what type of? Admin tech demands have you found yourself facing this time that have been different?

DANIEL

I think admins pretty streamlined for this. It's just me and Ilia how production manager. We talk about props once a week and then we go and do. Whatever we're doing. Because I've usually written I've I spent a lot of time in pre production writing. Yes, documents and documents of information that I just pull from now. To act upon essentially, so it's pretty crazy. I must admit.

CRAIG

And you've mentioned props how have the props been coming together.

DANIEL

Up pretty good. Like the there's big lists of it. Then you go. Ohh. Actually it's really not hard to get any of this stuff like you just find it in the houses or on in the place that you're filming, cause it's naturally there. Or if it is something a bit more complicated. I'll get a graphic designer to make this and we'll stick it on something like we made a series of fake. Beer bottles with a fake brand.

Speaker

Right.

DANIEL

Please. Yeah. So for for instance.

CRAIG

So you had to get a a label created printed.

DANIEL

The label made? Yeah, and. And we've got a great relationship with the graphic designer who has done a lot for us, like DVD covers and our actual partnership logo. Yeah. And that was then adapted into the logo for this fake beer brand.

CRAIG

Really. Yeah. Is it? Be good.

DANIEL

Big love lager.

Speaker

OK.

DANIEL

When I go home, I have to make more because we have to use some tomorrow. Yeah, so. The only. The only time props become a problem is like thinking ahead about ohh we need this pretty important prop that requires. It's a bit more involved like for example we have we're filming in March seeing where we need a fake or at least a a phone booth that we can make look. Kind of old. And obviously you can't, but you can't just buy a real phone booth for cheap or find one very easily, so you have to.

EDWARD

Make one. Now there's a funny story with this. That I thought you were aware of because you told me. They get the prop. Right. And they get it in the mail and you can't take the phone off the.

DANIEL

Receiver. Ohh yeah. So I bought a. It was a good wall ornament actually I've left it on my wall but the the piece that we're using as the. Phone in the phone booth is a little ornament that I bought cheaply, and I and I just sort of assumed that you'd be able to lift the receiver off. Unfortunately, you can't do that so but instantly I was like, Oh well, whatever, we'll come up with a way to. Take it. So essentially our plan is to have, if someone's looking in the phone booth, you have someone standing in it holding another phone and yes, and and and having it having it have them hold it so they can pull it. In and out of shower the magic.

EDWARD

Of cinema and I, you know not to say that I'm not creative.

DANIEL

Ohh no, that's not.

EDWARD

Because no, because because because my creativity has sort of been more specialised in sort of, I guess.

DANIEL

True at all.

EDWARD

Problem solving and how to leverage networks and how to yeah, your creativity comes in execution. Yeah, that too.

DANIEL

As opposed to inception, yes, yeah.

EDWARD

I I I find that actually coming up with ideas for shots. I I think it gets messy if I try to. Come up with that. With those shots. I just have faith that Daniel has an idea of how those shots are gonna be edited together. And I yeah. And I performed those.

DANIEL

Shots, I think. Come carry. Have you ever seen the the the weird? Think about like seeing an apple in your head really clearly or not at all. You ever seen this? So how does that work? So it's a test for how like. How vivid your sort of visual imagination is. I know a guy at work who cannot see images.

CRAIG

In his head. So you describe something like an.

DANIEL

Apple. Yeah, and he can't. He can't imagine it visually.

CRAIG

Comes to the.

DANIEL

At all. Ohh and about I think I might be pulling this number out of nowhere, but I think this was the case. I think something like 30% of people don't actually see images in their head.

CRAIG

Right.

DANIEL

And I was like, blown away by that because that doesn't make sense to me because to me, I was explaining to someone yesterday, to me, it's kind of like I've got. An extra layer. Of like of images going across my vision. So what I'm imagining?

EDWARD

So you're schizophrenic.

DANIEL

Ohh, maybe but, but when I'm writing I just see. Like just instantly and I and consistently, it just repeats over and over in my head when I think about it. So it's as though I've watched it a million different times. So it's really easy for me to concoct lists of how it's supposed to look without necessarily having to storyboard it, because I know a lot of people would do that. And would recommend doing that. That but I tried it once and I was like I don't need to do this, it's all in here. And it doesn't. Sort of. Yes, I was hoping.

EDWARD

He was pointing to his head, by the way.

DANIEL

That they'd pick good.

CRAIG

This is a audio. Medium yes.

EDWARD

And so does that mean Daniel, when you visualise a sequence you're visualising it edited together? Yeah. Yeah. See, I I actually struggled to do that.

DANIEL

You're you're you're very good at focusing on single single shots and knowing how each of.

Speaker 5

I I'm.

EDWARD

Them is working so you know. Think of that what?

DANIEL

You will, I. I suppose you might say. I think in terms of the edit of the film, so I'm I I just sort of know instinctively how to. Like write a short list. So if I do it by myself it comes out a lot more unfiltered. Probably a lot more. We're slightly more ambitious. But in doing that, you sort of strive harder to get to the spot that you want.

CRAIG

To be at and I imagine. Yeah. Really important literacy to then become a second nature as you're breaking down the world around you. But via that technology of creating a film.

DANIEL

Yes, yes.

CRAIG

Right, that, that it's exactly this will appear there the the like I you you see sometimes that kind.

DANIEL

People doing the little.

CRAIG

Of cliche of the. And sign thing. Yeah. And there will be getting the aspect I guess or what's in shot and not in shot. Yeah, but you you you're doing. It without having necessarily put no rectangle with.

DANIEL

I I don't really have to do that necessarily.

Speaker

Plenty of peace.

EDWARD

He he just trusts that I've got. It in the shot. Yeah, yeah. Actually there there is. There is a piece of equipment that you might notice some directors have. In behind the scenes footage you they'll have this necklace with the this lens thing on it and and that's that's basically so they can see, right without having to set up the.

CRAIG

Yes. Ah yes.

EDWARD

Camera right? And my equivalent of that is I just have the camera off the tripod and I just set up the shot. With the camera vaguely. And then I go. Yeah, that that's good and move everything in place and set it. Up there, I.

DANIEL

Suppose any interest in technology that I have is wow, you can do that. That's cool. Like when we hooked the phone up to the camera. So now you don't actually have to look through the. Camera to see what's on it. You can walk around and you can show people what the framing is without having to move the. Camera but I.

CRAIG

Guess you have to be open to the learning. Curve. Yeah, being linked to that, it's like, OK. It looks great. I guess let's put into practise. See what works. Doesn't work.

EDWARD

And again, this this taps into a conversation we had a few weeks ago or months ago now.

DANIEL

Probably would have been two months ago.

EDWARD

There's, there's always going to be someone who's thought of that question and has come up with. A solution for. That so you go. I can't afford a monitor every time I've tried to get a monitor, I've I've struggled with setting it up. So. Can you use your phone as a monitor? Yes, you can. What apps can I do? Use what free apps can I?

DANIEL

Use ohh what apps work with your camera.

EDWARD

Yeah. Yeah, that's it, you know, but we shouldn't get too into that topic because.

DANIEL

Six things are a Google away.

EDWARD

Otherwise you'd be.

CRAIG

Yeah, well, yeah. Well. Let's I think it's a. Good way of showing that plumbing question action in terms of on set showing me that set up how your mobile phone is used as a monitor. That's streaming the image from the camera that you're using, and it's just a. Free app. That you've hooked up for it. It's amazing.

EDWARD

And there are limitations with that. The signal, if it's wireless, doesn't it? There's a lot of latency there. And there's a lot of if you move the monitor too far away, then it starts to the the image starts to starter but. For, you know, nice, cheap and easy way. Of doing it perfect.

DANIEL

And just for someone to understand what the framing is like.

EDWARD

Yeah. Oh. Oh, yeah. No. OK, so. So this. Ohh. Ohh so this has been the bane of my filmmaking existence for so long. No, still in frame still in frame, still in frame. Still in frame. No, you're out of frame. Ohh a little, but if you just go up to the actor or the OR or whoever's got the sound or whatever. And you just show them an image of it they can. Ohh and they can shuffle off a bit and. Go. Ohh, I'm out of frame or I'm in frame.

CRAIG

Yeah, much simpler. Yeah. But the question to you raise the point of props. So this got me thinking. Of that other clip pose I'll play, which is World building essentials for screenwriters. Hmm. Because one of the. Other fun parts I guess of coming on that day was how you guys had created the? Idea of a little corporate interview piece or or corporate puff piece that was being produced that I was. Acting in and, you know, there was discussion of, you know, how are we gonna set the lighting up for this and so forth and then this kind of amusing moment, I think where one of you were quipping that actually we can just set up anyway, because it's going to look, it's meant to look crappy. It's meant to look kind of, it's meant to go.

DANIEL

In the Canon of the. I guess bit it's supposed to go.

EDWARD

Wrong. Yeah, it it's supposed to be one of those things where you've clearly got people that know what they're doing and they've set it up properly. And then, inexplicably, it all goes wrong because someone didn't communicate something to someone.

DANIEL

My sort of my in my head. I've sort of concocted this idea that. In that same. You're sort of. You were supposed to not walk around the room, but you took the initiative to walk around the room and they.

Speaker

Right.

CRAIG

Had to follow you and suddenly this this nicely set up shots. Yeah, is no longer nicely set up because I'm moving out of the shots and the cameraman has to do this kind of, you know, a handheld kind of.

EDWARD

Detach it. Yeah, detach the camera from the tripod and that look.

Speaker

OK.

EDWARD

Like it looks so messy and.

CRAIG

Cause it I mean it. It is a fun question. When you're brought on, I mean, I'm not an actor, so it was nice.

DANIEL

Like you could fool Ben. Thank you.

CRAIG

It was nice to be told alright. You know it's it's meant to look kind of like a. Bit of train. Wreck and those kind of points of guidance. I just really helpful to get into the the type of performance you're doing. So, OK, let's listen to a little bit of this guy setting up what this idea of world building is. Cause guess what we're talking about here is. How how on set? Everything's deliberate, right? I mean, when you're looking back on this scene that we filmed, you might think, Gee, why, why did they choose that or that? And as you're answering that question. It's like, well, they deliberately. Like it's not an accident. No, no this. Was done that way. Alright, so let's listen. Firstly, this is an interview with. Was Steve Douglas Craig? Who works at Sony Pictures Entertainment as the editor and acquisitions executive for worldwide acquisitions team. Wow, that's one of.

EDWARD

These ohh humming jobs. Could you please repeat that?

CRAIG

This is have a number of titles underneath his name on his name, but anyway, let's just jump in, but I'm sure it will make more sense once we listen to him.

Speaker 7

What does world building mean to?

Speaker 5

You it means star walls.

CRAIG

Which is a classic answer, right? What is well.

Speaker 6

Getting me star.

CRAIG

Wars, right? And many people do point to Star Wars as great, and particularly the cantina scene as well. Building, right? So that first Star Wars movie, it's you, you, you know, you're in a different world not because it's told to you necessarily, I mean.

DANIEL

You do have that. See the sort of vibrant. Multicultural alien Rebel in the.

CRAIG

That's right. Yeah. There's these wonderful shots. Lucas stars going from table to table of all these, you know, absurdly, you know, made up alien creatures. And just with no dialogue, you get the sense of wow, this is a really kind of multicultural multi species galaxies.

EDWARD

And then you get the empire, and they're all the same. They're all the same, and they're all.

DANIEL

Yes, the. Yeah, yeah.

CRAIG

Human. So let's see how it breaks down this idea of why styles is. A good example. Yeah, in a way. In a way, the we were doing the Cantina scene in a different sense on set in that way instead of having aliens. It was each student.

DANIEL

And they all sort of populated the room with their own sort.

CRAIG

I interviewed with still friends.

DANIEL

Of style. Yeah. And yeah, no. Alright, sure.

Speaker 5

It means setting your main point of view or your character in the world and and and I think. When you look at sci-fi and fantasy, you know a lot of horror. You know, period pieces that becomes an essential part of creating the tone and the feeling of what you're trying to convey. So if you're sending something in a period, if you don't get that right, you know the the read can be in the in the film is not gonna work. So I think world building is, you know, very much about the creating of the setting. And for me the setting is a character in itself in that. You know, if you wanna set, you know, a an exorcism for instance, where would you set that? Well, let's set it in a church. You know, there's a contrast there. Well, let's set it in a school playground somewhere.

Speaker 6

Well, I like.

CRAIG

Character. So the setting the location is a.

DANIEL

Yes, I've I've heard that.

CRAIG

Character in itself.

DANIEL

That idiom quite often.

CRAIG

Do you feel you've? Come across any characters and some of the settings and well, building you've done on this piece.

DANIEL

On this one, I think and.

CRAIG

I mean, I guess the. The school that we did the.

EDWARD

It's more.

DANIEL

I think we will, but we haven't gotten to those.

CRAIG

Yeah, cause looking yes right in the.

Speaker

That's it.

EDWARD

Edits it's more. Practicality and logistics and coming up against reality and having those sorts of limitations.

DANIEL

That being said, like you can get a lot of character out of something. Yeah, like that, that room that we filmed you've seen in I. Didn't know that that existed.

CRAIG

How did?

DANIEL

You because we get to it. We had. We didn't. We didn't get a tour of the campus before we before we went.

CRAIG

I mean.

DANIEL

And when we went there, I was like, well, the 1st order of business is to find where we're filming because we haven't established. That yet?

EDWARD

No, the 1st order of business was to get the alarm to stop ringing.

DANIEL

Because something because the the the people of the powers that be had not turned to the power off like they were supposed to. And so the.

CRAIG

Alarms went off. Yeah. The doors were opened and.

Speaker

So that.

CRAIG

Again, this is. One of those. Crazy things that can hit you in the reality of. Of going on location to a spot. I mean you'd lined it up. You've done everything in accordance with protocol. Yep, contacted someone that allowed you to use the school facilities to do this film shooting. Fantastic. It's going to be on a. Sunday, but then. You get there, you think? OK, well here's the main. Door. I guess we'll. Open it was. There a moment of hesitation of thinking.

DANIEL

You know. Ohh no because I just sort of trusted the sister. Like. Yeah. So I was like, oh, surely this source, this is all working. Put the key in and I just opened it and I was like.

CRAIG

Oh, oh, well. And then a A a very. Loud alarm, I'd imagine.

DANIEL

Yeah. Mind you, I I don't think anybody was was too concerned when any citizen arrests.

CRAIG

I I thought.

EDWARD

I thought it was hilarious.

DANIEL

No, like we we we both thought it was quite, quite amusing. We were like here we. Go, you know.

EDWARD

I don't. I don't wanna toot my own horn. But I believe. That had we reacted differently, had Daniel and I started panicking, everyone else would have.

DANIEL

Started panicking because all. All you can do is to get the person with the contact to make the contacts again, just to make sure that we're in the in the in the the good zone and to and to solve the problem. And so when I said. I was like when it happened. I just said to Illy. Ohh. Do you reckon you could call the people just to let them know this has?

EDWARD

Happened and she was already on that.

DANIEL

And she was already. Doing it so that was fine.

CRAIG

Eileen, too great.

DANIEL

Well done. About 3-3 minutes later. Ohh the alarms are off. Very good. They were very apologetic that they hadn't turned. Them off for us.

CRAIG

And so when you we you did set up where you kind of thinking, OK, yeah. I hadn't seen and hadn't been able to get on site see this but we can make. This work. Yeah, in a way, a character.

Speaker 6

Will be a.

DANIEL

A and so. Yeah, I sort of had to explore the building for a bit and go. This, this and this pretty snap snappy decision making, I suppose. And then I walked off to the other end of the school and I saw this big open classroom with lockers in the background, and I was like, ohh, it's a big space. We can set up anything in here. And it wasn't quite the scene that I'd imagined in my head. The scene had rows of desks. Whereas in the scene that we ended up shooting. And there was bigger desks, with students crowded around each desk, and there was about four desks, I think. It was, and in the end, that kind of made it better, because then it's more awkward, more awkward even, like it would have been so strangely stopping. And for you to walk through.

Speaker

Empty space.

DANIEL

Rows of desks, as opposed to what you did do, which is a bit of a fluid and interesting. But when we got, yeah. No, we'll use this. And I just. I didn't think too much about. Moving things right now because that's later and I'm sure we'd get to it quickly and then, but when we did get to that room, I was like, ohh excellent. We're here. And so our lighting person, she said to me, oh, so where are we putting? All the lights and I went. Very good question. And at the first one, she asked that I was pretty like, yeah, that's a very good question where where do they go in relation to the rest of it? And then I said. This is supposed to be a commercial within this movie that is poorly made, not necessarily poorly made on our own behalf, but the in the cannon of the film. It's an awful advertisement and I sort of. Thought well if. The lights are in the background of all these shots. It kind of doesn't matter because. This kind of goes off the rails anyway.

EDWARD

And I suppose that does turn the space into a character, because it establishes that. It's meant to go wrong. If that makes sense, well, I mean I'm. I'm just trying to articulate what's going on in my mind because because there's a lot of elements in there that help sell the stories so that the lights being in all those awkward positions.

DANIEL

I think Kim. Yes, and. And in that case, it's sort of like this accidental. You're stumbling into this situation. Where it's just perfect. Ohh, excellent.

CRAIG

Very good. And it brings back to the point, I guess he's making about, you know, if you're filming an exorcism, where would you do that? Ohh. You could do it in a. Church, which would be a complementary space, right, I. Mean it's religious. So OK, that. That doubles down and that.

DANIEL

Whereas the playground is a really cool contrast. Yeah. And I I like contrasts so.

Speaker

Or or you.

EDWARD

Or you go with the classic in the bedroom. You know, they've been sort of sequestered away and hidden away from society by their family. They're embarrassed or ashamed of them, and that's all that, that that's established. That's established by them being in.

CRAIG

Itself is telling the story, yeah.

EDWARD

The bedroom. Exactly. Yeah. So.

DANIEL

Yeah, I think, yeah, there's a lot to to get out of where you film something, regardless of what it is. I suppose. Like there's a relationship between the space and the content. And I suppose in this case, the relationship is that it is where it's supposed to be in a school setting, desks with desks, and it's kind of.

CRAIG

In a school setting.

DANIEL

Set up in this weird way where your character kind of alludes to the idea that these students were collected for this like it was an experiment, and that they're all sort of non committal to the to the process and it's all just very awkward and bizarre, yes.

EDWARD

I suppose I suppose the question is. Was there a conscious decision made to turn a space into a character, or did it just happen organically?

DANIEL

I I think it always happens organically, just just because it's that's just the nature of things and and semiotics, I suppose.

EDWARD

Yeah, well, I mean. Because like in the cantina scene that that a lot of planning went into that. And so it was a very conscious decision to have everything out. What? Yeah. Whereas for us, we're just like, yeah, this is. Good. Yeah. It works.

DANIEL

And not that there's no planning, I suppose, but. There's there's, UM. There's more to be stated in, say, something like the Cantina or it's like there's there's intention to create a sort of a what's the word? Very, very similitude. Yes. For for the audience to buy into.

CRAIG

But you know, again I think you could imagine. That suspension of. Disbelief being threatened. If it was, you know, so you're meant to be. Talking with students. If, if, if. They were not kind of portraying student Ness. Yeah, enough. Right. Unless that was the kind of.

DANIEL

Satire, which is quite funny because originally the character I was playing in that scene was supposed to be played by Peter G Who is. Old, old man. So and that was supposed to be a kind of satire of a mature age student. And he's a very mature age student, yes, but it ended up being me putting on funny voice and kind of pretending to be an old man. Which is, which is I I think equally is.

CRAIG

Funny look and and I do think that's an interesting moment where you think, do you lean into the stereotype or do you pull back from it? Right. So even when I was thinking, OK. What clothes should I choose? I thought. Well, I. I'm just gonna lean into a stereotype of, so I chose. Was a A A, a turtleneck, black turtleneck. Because I'm thinking. You know that is such a cliche kind. Of lecturer philosophers like.

DANIEL

Topologist Ted talk that's it, that's.

CRAIG

Ted talk kind of iPhone launch vibe and then one of those kind of you know modestly thread or what is it that kind of chords chord jacket, yeah.

DANIEL

What you had, yeah.

CRAIG

Very, very. Hottest chords and my wife. I I was just gonna wear a baseball cap. And my wife said no, no, no, no, no. Put that golf cap on. No, it's not too much.

DANIEL

Yeah. Yes. No, I think that that CAP actually kind of made the costume actually.

CRAIG

It's like ohh, do the golf cap.

EDWARD

Your your performance. In that great was OK, it was something else, I mean.

DANIEL

I I particularly liked the way that you, like, sort of reacted to the the other actors. Your improv is very good, especially when you.

CRAIG

That's very nice.

EDWARD

You're you're improv was was fantastic.

DANIEL

Had to react to just being glared at by someone eating an apple that we couldn't see. Like the camera can't see her because she's obscured by books, but you can just feel her rage. And you were the only person who. Got to see it, yes.

EDWARD

But without words, purely through your acting, what I got from that scene was. A a university lecturer who'd been beaten down by the system, thrown to the walls.

DANIEL

And sort of in the deep end. Yeah. What? What he's supposed to do in. This scenario, he's.

EDWARD

Forced forced to do this dumb HR experiment. You know, look how fantastic we are. Look at all these wonderful students and and and when it went wrong, you didn't fight it. You just sort of accepted it as a. Another thing that happens at these places that you. You go right well. I give up. I don't care anymore.

Speaker

And and he just and.

DANIEL

It's an easy roll rolls with it just rolls with it, yeah.

EDWARD

Yeah, and he roles.

CRAIG

And and I think part of it was the way that again that world building idea of just giving the scene permission to be messy and bad and and. And once you're realising. Ohh, you know I don't need to be. Good. It's. It's basically liberating.

EDWARD

Yeah. Yeah. And another thing about the deterioration of your character is that it it sort of brings into question. Was he always on board with this or or or was he putting on a show for the camera at the beginning? Fantastic again. Well, none of this was in the script. None of this is in the dialogue. All of this is in how you perform. Yeah, so.

DANIEL

100%.

EDWARD

I know that's.

DANIEL

Not mind you, like the prompts are in this, I guess, but like and the and the dialogue is there.

EDWARD

Going off. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah.

DANIEL

But how you act upon that those prompts in that dialogue is, is even more important, because sort of it that that is what creates the cinema, I suppose.

EDWARD

Yes. And when I read the script, this is not. The scene that I had in my mind, yeah.

CRAIG

Right. Look, it is an interesting question. Isn't it that that what? What cause? Yeah, the. The script was really nice and it gave me a very clear idea of of five students. I think it was that that had been brought together. But it is interesting adapting from one medium to another medium. So going from print, where as you're saying, if you've got a vivid imagination. You might be having quite a. Rich. Well, that that leaves you. Your, your, your. Your mind, but you might not, in which case it's kind of a bit flat and grey. Yeah. And so then it's interesting trying to adapt that into a very. Different medium of of visual performance with real people.

DANIEL

I suppose on that what I'm finding before I forget about this, I'm particularly. Rewarding about this project is that because I'm acting upon my vivid imagination, I am actually I am actually seeing the things that are in my head and that's very gratifying. And when it isn't exactly it, it's usually better.

CRAIG

Right.

DANIEL

Like in in this instance with this scene that you're in, I mentioned that originally in my mind it was. Rows of desks, yes. But this how it ended up was more amusing, and now that is the definitive version in my head. So it's replaced. Whatever was there before. But the way it flowed and the way it was paced and how it was performed was essentially what was in my mind. It's just that. I guess the the particular visual of it is different, which is interesting I suppose.

CRAIG

Yeah. And again, it it's it's such a unique experience to go through that idea of of I guess you could the cliche of being that giving birth. To that process.

DANIEL

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker

That all those.

CRAIG

Kind of transformations and emotions you experience very interesting. Well, let's jump in and hear where else. What actually would you guys like to further embellish the idea of well building or plumbing?

DANIEL

That's a very good question.

EDWARD

Do we have time?

CRAIG

We've got 15 minutes. 15 minutes left, so we can certainly explore, jump off from from either one of these into some.

DANIEL

More depth I reckon we can spend another like 5 minutes on.

Speaker

All right.

DANIEL

On world building and then sort of go.

Speaker

OK.

DANIEL

Back to plumbing. Well, let's have a little.

CRAIG

Listen to the next. Clip and see how he sets up that idea again, of contrast, or complementing what building.

Speaker 5

Where it can be explosive and it can have a say in what world that we're we're trying to convey. I think that that's also a common thing. When I see in the beginning of scripts when I'm looking at. Yeah. Is this a good script or not? Do does the writer understand the world that they're in? Do they understand how important the world is and the effect it's supposed to have on on the characters trajectory? You know, out into a new world?

CRAIG

Daniel, what do you think about that? I mean, because I guess the first experience anyone you're going to? Invite on to a. Project. Yeah as. Is the script is. Yeah. So when you send that script out, do you often find that, you know, people get it pretty?

DANIEL

The script, yeah. Quickly in this case, yeah, people seem to get it quite nicely. I think that's because potentially because it's just a. It's a very. It explains itself quite well. It's not very. It's not incredibly vague and it's a it's a, it's a the whole script in its entirety. It is quite a. I I. Like is. It's an easy story to understand.

CRAIG

Is it a kind of a coming?

DANIEL

Of age or generation clash generation clash between not that wider generation gap. I suppose that kind of almost I suppose to use more concrete language, probably like a millennial and a Gen Z. Clash I suppose. But it could apply to any. Eight year age gap in your 20s, I suppose in any time that isn't necessarily today, I suppose. Because it was the movie is sort of about. How a 20 year old and a 28 year old differ and how that sort of creates a conflict and camaraderie. In the end I suppose. And people got that pretty, pretty well. As for how the world in the script sort of informs all of that, I suppose you've got, you know, dreary office buildings that kind of heightens the of this guy's life is sort of in, in shambles. His house is messy and and a bit like he doesn't sort of care very much about what's going on. And that gives you a. That that informs you of what the characters internal world might be like. You know, he's got a messy house. He's probably. Got a messy mind. Yes, whereas say the younger character clearly in the script never says that he lives with his parents. But you can tell because the house that he's in is like, it just looks like somewhere that a married couple lives and it just it it gives off a certain energy or a vibe that that make that makes you infer things about the character that aren't necessarily told to.

CRAIG

You, but it certainly is. That knows what. It is, yes, exactly. And yes, because of that you can infer quite a.

DANIEL

Lot. Yeah, like the exactly.

CRAIG

It's easy to see those logic leaps of logic.

EDWARD

I think. Because I I I was acting in a scene. I've got a brief moment in this movie and the the props were coming. Out and I hadn't fully realised it in my head. That these props were going to have such. Huge impact on the dynamic of or not the not not the dynamic. The sort of help me out here Daniel there's the the.

DANIEL

The reasons I I can guess that but also I you sort of thinking about the the way you're interacting with the?

EDWARD

Yeah. Well, see, see. See, this is something that I struggle with is the details of a set being something that can be used.

DANIEL

Scene. Yes. Yeah.

EDWARD

I I did do a decent job, I think. Of going ohh. Well, my character can show dominance over this other character by picking up one.

DANIEL

By using the same and using the props.

EDWARD

By using the scene and and and picking up one of his one of his toys and threatening him with it. Not not, not, not. Not threatening, threatening but just sort of Lisa.

DANIEL

Sort of, I suppose to be more specific. It's like he's he's his. He's the main characters, I guess some supervisor. Yes. And he comes over to sort of toxically.

Speaker

Right.

DANIEL

Guilt him into working on the weekend? Yes, yes. And he kind of. And and. And one of the props in the scene on this desk cause the character. Well, this is another setting thing, I guess. Is that. And the more well building thing is that this character, the main character loves knickknacks. Yeah. He just has stuff everywhere. So he's got. Cars and toy guns on his desk and a random lightsaber that he hits his desk with at one point and darts that he's just got got there. So when you come over, yeah, to, to sort of to increase that sort of power dynamic, he picks up one of the toy guns and starts playing with it while he's really delivering his. Yeah.

EDWARD

And it.

DANIEL

Is. So the thesis on the on that moment.

EDWARD

And I think I do a good. Job of that but. But I didn't incorporate the fact that I had allowed one of my underlings to clutter his workspace with all this in my characters mind. Crap. You know, I hadn't. I hadn't really sort of internalised that and gone. How do I use this in the performance? It was just a ohh well I can use this gun to, you know, threaten him with it and.

DANIEL

There's. Yeah, there's meaning in that, like twirling a gun around while you're talking to somebody who has a kind of aesthetic vibe to. It but yeah.

CRAIG

Very complimentary again.

EDWARD

But there could have been more sort of contempt and disgust for. Why he's got all this stuff?

DANIEL

You know which, like, interesting, who creates discussion amongst everybody? Who's there as why does he have all these things on his desk and why do they?

EDWARD

Allow this? Yeah.

DANIEL

Which creates funny head cannon moments. Yeah, well, he just has them because he's really good. He actually is really good at his job, but they.

EDWARD

Just let him get away with it. Yeah, and they don't audit him because he he he does his job well, just. Don't question it. Don't don't. Maybe they think he's crazy and will pull a gun on them. Who? Yeah, he just just let him go. Let him be. But the the the point is, is that I didn't internalise that at the time. And so. I I can definitely improve on that in the future.

CRAIG

But yeah, I I can. See how the the. Props combine nicely with the scripts, yeah.

DANIEL

And the and the, the setting and whatever, whatever we're we're filming.

EDWARD

Performance suffered because I didn't internalise it.

CRAIG

Well, maybe I think you've been waiting. Harshly, so I'm I'm sure.

DANIEL

I no, I actually have a a comment to make about that line of thinking. I actually think that not internalising the quote unquote logic of that. Is actually a boon because it lets you focus on the thematic relevance of why you're doing these things on a subtextual level.

EDWARD

Ohh this this could turn into a whole discussion.

DANIEL

If you don't, if you focus too much on what makes sense necessarily, you're just you're gonna miss the opportunity to do cool things that makes sense on a deeper level.

CRAIG

It's almost a very mindful moment. Yeah, right. To allow yourself to, like, there's something they say about the script. Right? Like you, you memorised.

DANIEL

Yes, it is, yes.

CRAIG

Script and then you there will. Be those interviews with actors and. Say you know, so we did like 6 takes from script and then like Ron Williams will often talk about this moment in the film. Like they'll say he'll deliver it six times perfectly and then they'll give him one or two improvise scenes. Sometimes they'll use those. Sometimes they work. Allegedly there's some film like a PG. And he did, where the improvised scenes basically turned. It into an R rated film, yeah.

DANIEL

Yeah. Yeah, right. So that that disappear.

CRAIG

And people have been pleading. For this R rated cut right? All of Robin Williams. 'S unreleased cuts from from which? Film it was, but anyway.

EDWARD

I think it might have.

CRAIG

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right.

DANIEL

And all that said, that's not to say that someone pointing out some logical inconsistencies is a bad thing, because that can sometimes work wonders because I was location scouting with somebody for a park that we could use for one of the scenes at the very end and he. Sort of said Ohh. In the script, because he's the lead actor, he goes. Well, in the script it kind of comes across more like it's a camping ground like a like out there kind of place and I but I for for reasons of like for artsy reasons wanting to use a swing set. In this in this scene.

EDWARD

And I suppose ohh sorry.

DANIEL

And that sort of and him going. Ohh well. So why are we using a park? And initially I was like ohh that question doesn't matter. But I thought about it for about 30 seconds. I was like, wait a minute. It's actually kind of tie. This could tie in what quite well with the with the movie because it's you could say that they've come to this park. It's not what they expected. It's changed from the last time they were here and that's relevant to the the point of the film. Yeah. And it makes it more poignant.

EDWARD

I suppose what I'm getting from this conversation. I did you? Have more no. I suppose what I'm getting from this conversation is that intentionality versus happenstance. It's it's not very useful to go. Ohh, no, no. You have to be 100% intentional or or 100% you know. Ohh well, we'll see what happens when.

DANIEL

I think God.

EDWARD

We get there.

DANIEL

I I I tend to be very intentional about about things, but I I think that and I could go on about this sort of thing for hours. But I think that people overvalue plan. Running in their writing pursuits.

CRAIG

If it comes at the expense, improve.

DANIEL

Of and I think that's not so much something that writers overvalue, but it's people who, but it's the consumer who overvalues that, and so they look for planning as a ohh did they plan?

EDWARD

For that, why were the curtains blue? Why? Yeah.

DANIEL

Not. Not even that. So what? I'm what I'm talking about is. Ohh did was that foreshadowed? Or was that just like he left? He left. Brent comes for himself and picked it up later. Yeah. Yeah. And I yeah. Sort of go people. People like to claim that.

Speaker

I see.

DANIEL

100% intentionality means 100%. That's that's the better way to go. But I think it's more interesting. If you can really see that a that a that an author has. Left themselves something and they picked it up later and used it for what? Not necessarily what they would have thought, or even that they might not have even had an idea, but they they take it somewhere and it looks like it was. Like bad all along I suppose.

CRAIG

Yes, yeah, yeah. It can be fascinating hearing about film projects later. And so that's become quite a significant part of the film was only. Yeah, you know, accidentally included. It was like Twin Peaks. The the famous scene where I think it was one of the gaffers or. Something or one of the? The the set assistants was was stuck in shot. I thought he was out of shot. And it was the. Bedroom scene. When the mother goes up after Laura. Anyway, so and then they were going over the shots and they realised that he's in shock and they was gonna be a real headache. But then they just will keep it in because this is that emergence of this. Yeah. Supernatural Bob killer character.

EDWARD

It's supposed to be weird, yeah.

DANIEL

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

CRAIG

Yeah, we are nearly at time, I know I know cause it. Does feel that and you've?

EDWARD

Got. I just, I just last point, I just wonder. How how many interviews with directors and and such, they just? Go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was 100% intentional. Yes, yes. We meant to do that. And I wonder if if, if that's the case, and then if that's just sort of created this perception.

DANIEL

Ohh well, I mean like there is different styles. I mean people would you can put somebody on on a sort of on a scale of one to 10 about how intentional someone is like someone could be totally maverick about it and just make up things on the fly and it just totally work.

CRAIG

You could bring, yeah.

DANIEL

But you've got to sort of balance that with. That intentionality with being able to be to, to improvise and take what you've already got and make it work.

EDWARD

If Tommy was so and comes across as being highly intentional, that doesn't necessarily have the room. Yeah, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best thing ever made.

DANIEL

Ohh yes, but.

EDWARD

Because it's it's. Just ohh well, maybe he vampire or or spoons it it it's a symbolic meaning and you. What? Why are there spoons in these frames? It's just.

Speaker

And then.

DANIEL

Because they bought them that. Yeah. Yeah. The shop and just kept. Them in there. Yeah, yeah. But like.

EDWARD

But, but maybe he vampire. Maybe. Maybe American football is. It just seems like. It's intentional, but it just doesn't add anything to the story.

DANIEL

Well, actually I I there was a quote that somebody said to me quite a long time ago and it was. There are no such thing as. There is no such thing as thoughtlessness in creative pursuits. There is. Only stupid thought.

CRAIG

Yeah, there's no bad bad ideas.

DANIEL

Sometimes, well, more so that it's not that no one's never thinking about it. So if you accuse something of being thoughtless, it's usually more that it was a bad thought. I I think it's a strange to conject. That a a creative person didn't think about what they were doing. That's just what they do. That's just what they're doing. I was gonna say something to do with that I've lost.

CRAIG

It it's so sad. Well, we are at time, but we'll have to see how this thoughtfulness continues and how the project then emerges. So if people want to find out more about this, where can? They go. Is there any space?

DANIEL

Ohh you can go to. You can go to three different places. Actually you can go to my Facebook Daniel Brooks with no ESOBR double OKS or you can go to the big love studios.

CRAIG

Any votes?

DANIEL

Them which someone made helped me make a week ago. Ohh, great. So that exists now.

CRAIG

Oh well. Freshly heated, so that's big love.

DANIEL

Big underscore love, underscore.

CRAIG

Studios studios alright, so hit those up.

DANIEL

On and we also have a TikTok.

CRAIG

Ticket, Instagram and tick. Wow.

DANIEL

Yeah, we have a TikTok. That is that there it's good. It's also.

CRAIG

A big glove, yeah, yeah.

DANIEL

Big love since.

CRAIG

Excellent. Well, Daniel and Edward, thank you so much for coming on the membership this week doesn't look like K Pop will be playing unless I could just sing K pop music, which I can't. So keep listening to some edge radio tunes media memberships. We'll be back next Friday and we've got can't sit down with Adrian after this. Thanks again Eddie and Daniel.

EDWARD

Yeah, see you, everybody.

DANIEL

Thank you. You can come out of the camera now.

Speaker 7

Tune into the true sounds of Tasmania.

 

 

 



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