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Daniel Brooks and Edward Williams on Their Indie Film “The Bin of Despondency”

Episode 47 - With host Craig Norris and guests Daniel Brooks and Edward Williams

First Broadcast on Edge Radio, Friday 22 September 2023.


We chat with the filmmakers, Daniel Brooks and Edward Williams, about their indie film, “The Bin of Despondency”. They share with us their creative process, their struggles, and their influences. This is a fascinating conversation that will make you laugh and think!

“The Bin of Despondency” is a witty satire of the self-help industry and the quest for success. It follows Patrick, a grumpy aspiring filmmaker, who buys a self-help book called “Success & You” after a series of failures. His old film-making partner is not impressed by his new obsession. Along the way, Patrick encounters various characters who are also looking for the secret to success in their own ways. The film is a brilliant commentary on the modern society and its values.

Don’t miss the chance to watch this amazing indie film, made by two talented Tasmanian filmmakers. The film will be screened at the Taroona Community Hall on October 7 and 8, 2023. Book your tickets now at Screening #1 (https://www.trybooking.com/CLBUV) or Screening #2 (https://www.trybooking.com/CLBUX).


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Craig Norris

Alright, welcome to media mothership on Edge Radio 99.3. This is Doctor Craig talking to you from Nepal. Luna, Hobart TAS and. Today I'm welcoming special guests Daniel Brooks and Edward Williams to discuss their latest indie film, The Bin of Despondent. Which you Co produce. You guys Co produced together, yeah.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, yes, we did. And it's funny that you say latest because it's old.

Craig Norris

So it is one of those those interesting phenomena of a film that has. Had a long gestation, yeah.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, very, very long gestation in fact. You might say that the. The road for this movie. Started in 20 as early as 20/19/2019.

Craig Norris

So yeah, pre COVID, right that that's always a historical date. These days it was a different world, yes.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, pre pandemic, yeah.

Edward Williams

A brighter world?

Daniel Brooks

Indeed it was.

Craig Norris

So we'll be exploring all these aspects. If you do have anything to ask about the art of filmmaking, feel free to SMS on 0488811707. We're also streaming hold on. We will be streaming any second. On Twitch and YouTube, so you can potentially send a message out on the chat. It just depends on my ability to keep an eye on it. I'll create a split screen, there we go. So yes, potentially you can post a message on the chat on YouTube or Twitch. Just search for us. The ship. And you could find us. Because they think we asked her. So anyway, welcome back. So we're going to again deeply dive out into the world of filmmaking, particularly indie filmmaking, and how this project has come to fruition with special guests Edward and Dan. These levels are way loud. But, you know, woken up now. Ohh yeah.

Daniel Brooks

We're working everybody.

Speaker

Up. So what?

Craig Norris

Were your roles guys on this film, Daniel or? What were your responsibilities?

Daniel Brooks

So I suppose to describe that I can tell a story. So the. The inspiration for making the movie mostly came from Edward and he essentially. Without using like official like using official terminology without being so official, he commissioned me to write an outline for it.

Edward Williams

It was more of a.

Daniel Brooks

Here's an idea. Do what you will with it.

Edward Williams

Here's an idea. Yeah, and.

Daniel Brooks

And so I I sort of came up with a rough outline for it. And then over the next, was it probably 18 months after that we sort of Co wrote it, I sort of. Dictated what needed to happen, but you actually physically wrote it, yeah. And then when it came time to produce it, we had decided to Co direct it and the sort of split of jobs was that it was technical direction and people direction, people direction, being myself and it would being the technical director. Over time, that's sort of those labels have sort of changed to be me being the director and Edward being the Co direct. Yeah, for reasons that we could probably get into at some point later. But the that's how it's. That's how it is in the credits.

Craig Norris

Right. Now, yeah, and the credits is.

Daniel Brooks

Where where you'll find all this information. If you come to the screening at the Trona Community hall at 7:00 PM on the 7th and the 8th of October.

Speaker

That's it.

Craig Norris

So the film is going to have its premiere just around the corner in October, which people can. Signed out by heading Facebook and searching. For the bin of despondency.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, if you look for the bit of despondency on Facebook, you will most likely see my my. Not my face. My entire body is standing next to a statue of an eagle.

Craig Norris

Well, OK, so. There's, let's start simply now. You've turned the eagle. Into the conversation. The bin of despondency. OK, so it's an interesting title for a film where what, what does it mean? The bin of dissonance?

Daniel Brooks

What does it mean it it it is described. Being someone being in a period or a. Or sort of being trapped in an. Excuse me.

Craig Norris

That was the sound effect. Of course, of being trapped. Trapped for a place.

Daniel Brooks

But being trapped in a particular mindset.

Craig Norris

Right, like like a a political.

Daniel Brooks

Mindset. No, not so much. I think more internal internal strife. It would be and sort. Of that sort. You know, just it sounds.

Craig Norris

Very negative, yes.

Daniel Brooks

It's it's just and sort of the movie sort of presents that as being. As have been that often, the bin doesn't come up very much in the movie, but it is there sometimes.

Edward Williams

So yeah, there's a there's a literal interpretation of that in a scene. Or two. Yeah, and there's. Actually, I think multiple interpretations of the title is it. Referring to throw bad bad ideas into the bin of despondency. Are you in the bin of despondency? Is is.

Craig Norris

Yeah, yeah. So kind of psychological, yeah.

Edward Williams

And and I think. I think the title. Is very much a product of. 2019 Edward because I used to be very adept at coming up with esoteric titles that. What? Really. What's the word I'm looking?

Daniel Brooks

For not, they're.

Edward Williams

Not very clear on what they're actually.

Daniel Brooks

Not ten pole titles, yeah.

Craig Norris

Well, I guess I mean I. Mean there are films. That, like the spot? Spotless minds. Yeah, that, that, that film. I mean, I can barely struggle to get it out the eternal mind. And there are films that have this kind of. Very symbolically, heavy.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, and and despite the the esotericism of the title, I actually think it's a pretty catchy title. Yeah, people, people remember it, which is good. I I was talking to a guy recently who I used to work with several years ago, and he remembered the name of the movie I was.

Craig Norris

It's been of despondency.

Speaker

Oh yeah.

Daniel Brooks

Working on at the time, yeah.

Craig Norris

Why do you think?

Daniel Brooks

That is because at the time he thought it was so cool. That he wanted he he wanted to make an album with that title.

Craig Norris

Yes. What type of music do you think would fit he?

Daniel Brooks

Because he was. He was a was a he was a.

Craig Norris

Wouldn't respond with.

Daniel Brooks

Like a He was a metal head and he had a metal band.

Craig Norris

It's a good fit.

Daniel Brooks

But yes, no, that was cool. But if I'm I think to bring more clarity to the title and now that we've discussed that that angle of it, I think to describe the movie. It's about this. Amateur filmmaker, who has recently experienced a bit of an ego death because his his passion project keeps getting rejected from all these festivals. He tries to get it into.

Craig Norris

Right.

Daniel Brooks

And that sort of opens him up to receiving the ideas of other people. In in ways that don't suit him, but he's trying to force himself to adapt and and and complete himself with the ideas of others. And so ultimately, the the movie is about. How different people view and? Become successful. And it's about how some ideas work for some people and some don't for others.

Craig Norris

It's actually it's interesting topic. There was an article I was looking at this morning. I mean on that idea of. The impact certain events can have on life and the conversations I guess that grew up around a text. So you have been despondency. Sounds like a really interesting film to discuss ideas of vulnerable moments in life, pressures placed upon you to. Achieve and and those kind of negative thoughts. I don't know if you come across, there's an interesting story talking about the tube girl in the UK and basically it's this viral phenomenon where this young girl. Recorded herself and streamed herself dancing on the subway line in London, and she was just unabashedly committing 100% to a dance performance in this busy city. Yeah, tube and and the conversation is really interesting cause the conversation around it is all about confidence. Isn't it amazing this person so. Confident. And isn't this interesting seeing someone perform this way? And so you then have this kind of recorded text where suddenly people are saying, you know, wow, what a great person. What an exciting moment. So they've created this text, which is getting people to talk about. She looks really confident. This could be very confident. Your main character, however, seems not to be this kind of aspirational. To figure out the. Is there a kind of idea you want people to be left by? I mean, it sounds like a very negative. Is it a? Positive or negative journey or?

Daniel Brooks

It it it, it ultimately is a positive journey. It gets to it.

Edward Williams

It it's, I think for the. Majority of the movie it's it's quite negative. But but then.

Daniel Brooks

With some with, with a few spices of, well, here's a silly, stupid scene. And here's a scene where A.

Edward Williams

Yeah, yeah, but then it it sort of ultimately has a really, in my opinion, cathartic ending. Yeah, that leaves you with a sense of, well, leaves me with a sense of.

Daniel Brooks

Character does this and.

Edward Williams

I guess relief. Because at the end of the day. A lot of the characters and a lot of the ideas are based off my own personal experiences. Sort of extrapolated out into this more conceptual idea rather than direct comparison to my life. Like none of what happened in the movie happened to me. But. A lot of the ideas are ideas that I've I was struggling with at the time, and so it was a really cathartic movie and. I think that ultimately the messaging is a positive message.

Daniel Brooks

And I supposed to go off the positive messaging thing that it just dawned on me that I didn't even describe the the major thing of the movie for me. Is that it's. It's about this sort of tussle that you have in your mind between doing what is. Potentially logical and what? And just doing whatever you want that's that's, that's passion fulfilling. So there's a sort of head and heart battle that the some of the characters go on.

Craig Norris

Yes, gardening edge. Yeah, I'm really excited. This is opening up a number of things, but it also strikes me there's two quick things. I guess. One is Full disclosure for me that I, I'm. In this field AM.

Daniel Brooks

You are indeed, yes. You are still in it.

Craig Norris

I still in it. Ohh great. I am person in lecture theatre. Yes, student in lecture theatre. Yes, watching so. A great role. Definitely. But Full disclosure there that. I am in it.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, you were in it for probably. 2030 seconds. Ohh wow. Something like that.

Edward Williams

And and you're acting. You're acting is brilliant.

Daniel Brooks

Oh yes, as always.

Craig Norris

And Edward, you had. A. A redaction and then. But I do want. To get this out, yes.

Edward Williams

Now, last time I was on. Your show, doctor Craig. I made the assertion that you can't do low light. Photography or cinematography with a phone? Turns out you can. I was wrong.

Craig Norris

And you found this out through. Experience. Yes, I was.

Edward Williams

I was doing behind the scenes on a short film. Called surprised by Jack Wellman Jansen, I don't think he'd mind me.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah. Who, after all, is the star of the bin of despondency, right?

Edward Williams

Yeah, so you know.

Craig Norris

So he was the star of the actor, and now he also has gone on to do a a little piece of.

Speaker

Yep, Yep.

Craig Norris

Work. And so you were involved in it.

Edward Williams

Yeah, well, he's he's he's always been a director. But he has done a lot of acting for me as a favour. And he's a very good actor and a very good director. He seems to have a very good grasp of how ****, how **** how a set. Should function and he has a very clear goal and a very clear vision. A very talented filmmaker, absolutely. Anyway, so.

Speaker 1

What was the?

Craig Norris

Is your name again.

Edward Williams

His name's Jack Waltman. Jansen.

Craig Norris

Jack, welcome. Jackson Jansen. Jansen.

Edward Williams

So anyway. We filmed that with the phone and it was a very dark set. Creepy sort of horror set. And I was blown away by the technology and the workarounds for for filming and low light with with phones so. Turns out filmmaking is even more accessible than.

Craig Norris

I thought so to. To achieve an effect that you are happy with, cause typically like for this film been of despondency, what was it that you were using? It was as a more kind of standard professional.

Edward Williams

Professional professional is not.

Craig Norris

In the in the.

Edward Williams

The word I'd use it was a Panasonic GH4. Which is very good camera for its price range, but it's by no means a professional camera. Hmm, but.

Craig Norris

Good indie standard student film kind.

Edward Williams

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Brooks

Of and obviously since then we've upgraded cameras and so we we had filmed just humans with a much better camera than that.

Speaker

Right, yeah.

Edward Williams

Just because you've got a better camera doesn't mean you can produce a better result. You need to really understand how to use the camera and how to use lighting as.

Craig Norris

Well, which brings us back to the camera, so. What did you add to the mobile phone? To be able to achieve something. You are happy with lenses on top of it.

Edward Williams

Our well, yes, those were used. I wasn't the cinematographer.

Craig Norris

Or something cool.

Edward Williams

I was doing behind the scenes. I didn't understand how any of it.

Craig Norris

Right. Yeah. Then you saw. The results you thought. Wow, yeah, yeah. Really. And what type of phone this would be?

Daniel Brooks

Oh, they're fantastic. Fantastic.

Craig Norris

A phone that's. IPhone 13. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So very much. Standard commercial, you know, highly discussed.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, it's an iPhone 13 or something. No, it's very exciting. I would say, right.

Edward Williams

Yeah, yeah.

Craig Norris

Are you thinking of doing a film?

Edward Williams

No, no, that's not my style.

Daniel Brooks

That's not now.

Edward Williams

Not much.

Craig Norris

Because you could do. I mean, there are those. There are those pieces of work that do found footage which lean into the poor quality of.

Edward Williams

This is not poor quality. This is this is 4K footage.

Craig Norris

Right. So they didn't even need to say, right, right, right, right.

Edward Williams

It was I I believe it was 4K.

Daniel Brooks

Footage? I think so, yeah, pretty sure. It was it. Was unimaginably pretty. Yeah, it was pretty good, yeah.

Craig Norris

Well, we'll have to find out more as that film draws towards some kind of.

Daniel Brooks

I think I think it's like a 55 minute short or something. Yeah, I.

Craig Norris

Yeah. Yeah, it's exciting. And that's just saying, you know, one of the rule takeaways from that experience you've had at what is the accessibility of creating strong, powerful professional looking video image.

Daniel Brooks

Think it's like.

Speaker

Yeah, I mean.

Edward Williams

It blows my mind. Just how little I know. About anything. I mean, I could. I can. I can offer some great insights about filmmaking, but. The the amount that you can explore with filmmaking is just so unimaginable.

Craig Norris

Well, look and then that's. That's an opinion. Probably very rarely said. I mean, usually you've got a lot of people who probably fit that that category of the the Dunning Kruger effect where you know the less you know the more you claim you have. Yeah. Complete understanding of what's occurring around you. And it looks I could do that. But then the more you know the more you realise. Actually, you know, there's a huge learning curve, absolutely.

Edward Williams

Well, I think what happens is. I've I've noticed a lot of people. They master certain aspects of filmmaking and then ignore others and think that. Think that they're a fantastic filmmaker. I don't wanna. Get too into it. Name names. No, I don't wanna name names or anything like that, but I think that filmmaking really is one of those things that you just have to. You have to cover so many bases. You can have the best sound you can have the best story you can have the best camera work. The best editing. But if you don't know how to treat your people, if you don't know how to find locations, if you don't know how to organise it, it could all fall apart.

Craig Norris

Well, I do want to drill. Down into all of. Those challenges and how you overcame them in this film, but let's set up the trailer, shall. We. So you guys have a trailer? That's on Facebook.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, it's about 50 seconds long.

Craig Norris

Yeah, 50 seconds. What do people need to know as their? I mean, cause I guess we're gonna create theatre of the mind.

Daniel Brooks

A bit of a mental image, yes. So this is a bit more difficult than the last time we were on here because this trailer is a bit more. And so basically what it is is you'll you'll hear a bunch of dialogue from the movie, that sort of strings together, at least at the beginning, a basic concept of this guy is in a bad place. He buys a book. And everyone around him, or at least some people around him, are telling him that this book is good. Image and then you kind of hear a bunch of other voices and that's kind of meant to represent how the movie is a bunch of voices.

Craig Norris

Right.

Daniel Brooks

So yeah.

Craig Norris

So there's lines of dialogue hearing which have this kind of.

Daniel Brooks

And the actual images associated with them are quite are meaningful if you if you were watching it, but there's no real point in describing each of the images because there's too many of them. So you can probably see a few like. It's mostly just shots of characters. Pretty powerful shots of some characters, maybe not so powerful shots of others, some of the good shots from the movie are in there just because. They look good. Maybe if you're establishing. Things, but I think the the most important thing to take away from it is. That the the loudness of it and the the erratic voices of it are intentional.

Craig Norris

Do we hear any of the scoring or?

Daniel Brooks

Yes, one of the pieces of music is in the train.

Craig Norris

Rights and this piece of music was commissioned or yes.

Daniel Brooks

It was. It was indeed.

Craig Norris

Great. So that's does Commission mean you? Own that now or.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, in in this case it does.

Edward Williams

Yes. Yeah. So in this specific case we own.

Craig Norris

It yeah, yeah. So we might be hearing this. Track on your phone if.

Daniel Brooks

It rings yes. Yes, exactly.

Craig Norris

All right, all right. So with no further ado, this is the trailer to bin of despondency, which will place us in a kind of very subjective mindsets. We'll hear some of the wonderful scoring for this film, as well as some of the key dialogue. All right, here we go.

Speaker

Just don't think you're looking for. No one really wants to watch.

Edward Williams

6 interesting title.

Speaker

Sensing you.

Craig Norris

Go ahead, read the book. I just know I'm not wasting my time with it.

Speaker

No one likes camping. You just. Say you do because you're expected to. By the way, go milk. Look, you're being a child. Responsibilities. Do you actually have? Yeah, and. You are having a go at me. I'm wrong. You're wrong. A tree is wrong.

Daniel Brooks

Come get your bread.

Speaker

What? All right, once again, exactly.

Craig Norris

Right, come get your bread.

Daniel Brooks

Come get. Yes. Come get your bread. It is a great lion. It is the thing that people seem to remember. Every time they see it. I've had a number of people come up to me.

Craig Norris

It's a great line.

Daniel Brooks

And say come. Get your bread and I just go. Yep, I will. Cuz that's your voice. Yes, that's my voice.

Craig Norris

I'm getting a thread. I'll get your bread. And can we drill down a little bit because it has captured me is is it, is it a will it? Will it spoil? The plot discussing in any way what.

Daniel Brooks

No, it won't spoil the plot. There is a.

Craig Norris

Does come get me?

Daniel Brooks

In fact, if anybody has paid attention to the marketing of this film, a lot of it. Has to do with milk. And bread because one of the main thematic metaphors and anchors is that is that the main character is seeking. He's he has to go and get milk. But he keeps coming back with bread.

Craig Norris

Right.

Daniel Brooks

And so.

Craig Norris

It seems like a bit of a cognitive dissonance.

Daniel Brooks

There. So one of the obviously in the film it's a motif that he keeps forgetting to get bread, no forgetting to get milk. Sorry.

Edward Williams

See. He is so obsessed with bread. Yeah. That, that even Kohl's milk bread. Yeah. No, he doesn't. He doesn't.

Daniel Brooks

Exactly. Well, I do, but the character doesn't, obviously. But but no I. But yes, all right. There's a great.

Craig Norris

Bread and.

Daniel Brooks

Milk. In fact, you used to describe before this movie was ever actually filmed. You used to describe it as a story about a guy who goes to get milk but ends up with bread instead.

Craig Norris

And that is a powerful idea. I mean, because how do you handle the return? Where you've you've not got the. Bread, but no, you've got nook the milk. And the bread. It gets kind of kind of challenged the idea. Of the hero. 'S journey, yes. Normally the hero's quest or kind of three act structure for character is they'll overcome adversity and they'll learn from it. And then the return. Right, bringing the milk back.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, yeah.

Craig Norris

Is 1 where you share that boon. Of knowledge with PS here.

Daniel Brooks

I know. I guess he kind of comes back with the milk eventually in a thematic sense, but obviously only to himself. I think it's probably the is the important.

Speaker

Thing to realise.

Daniel Brooks

Was, but yes, no, I actually think it is. In fact, the more and more I've thought about it, the more I like it. I think there was a period of time where I wasn't taking it so seriously, like there was this sort of like, oh, it's pretty funny that he goes out to.

Craig Norris

It's a deep concept.

Daniel Brooks

Get milk and then he gets bread instead.

Craig Norris

Will depend on him getting milk.

Speaker

No, I mean.

Craig Norris

Is there anger that is?

Speaker

I mean, there's.

Daniel Brooks

There's one character who would really have liked him to get. The milk but.

Speaker

OK.

Edward Williams

That character never then goes out to get milk.

Daniel Brooks

Himself. No, no.

Craig Norris

Right. Yeah. And that's meaningful. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker

Which is actually.

Daniel Brooks

Quite in character. You think about it so. Does. Yep. But no that.

Craig Norris

And the character that says come get your bread.

Daniel Brooks

He is a. A shady bread salesman. Wow. Who? In a a scene that was actually a late addition to the film, tries to sell the main character's loaves of bread out of the back of his car. It is a very, I think quite funny scene, not just because I'm in it, but I think it's. Quite fun. Come get.

Craig Norris

OK. Your bread come get. Your bread? Yeah. No, I mean, I mean, do you? I mean, obviously when you're creating anything as labour intensive as a film, every decision you're making is deliberate.

Daniel Brooks

Ohh no.

Speaker

No, course not.

Edward Williams

No. See a lot of a lot of a lot of the movie actually reveals itself to you as you're making it. So a lot of that was. In in the edit you discover a motif that you didn't realise was there. You're subconsciously.

Daniel Brooks

And then you can play on it while you're editing.

Edward Williams

It. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of things.

Speaker

Right.

Edward Williams

That are actually some of the best aspects of the movie are things that you pick up. Like six months before you finish.

Daniel Brooks

It. Yeah, so you've you've.

Craig Norris

You've filmed a tonne of scenes, I imagine. And then you're in the. Editing, you know, with the idea of. What you thought the? Story was and and you're kind of piercing together and. What? What are some moment? I mean did. The bread was the bread, always the bread. Was fair.

Daniel Brooks

It's always in the script. There was always that he had to go out and get milk. But there was not. There wasn't a scene where he was tricked into getting bread. It's just that he went and got bread because he was. He was being absent minded and despondent.

Craig Norris

In the bin of this fun, yeah.

Daniel Brooks

He was in. He was in the bin of despondency. But I guess through filming it was, I think it was about halfway through the shoot. I I don't remember where the idea came from, but there was an idea to change the scene where he gets bred to fit more with the scenes around it. And there's a kind of rule of three thing that happens where there's three different scenes. Of somebody trying to convince him they're trying to sell him an idea. Every scene and the third one is that the guy's trying. To sell him. Bread, right? And he sells him the bread after he's essentially told all of these other people to ****** off. And that someone finally got to him and he bought the bread. And the idea of that became quite funny because then we were like ohh it. We can like have him cut into the. Next scene that was already established as him having come back with bread instead by filming a scene where he gets this bread but not from the shop but from a random guy. In the street that was selling it to him. And then after that, the bread salesman then managed to make two more appearances in the film.

Craig Norris

Organically, this started to happen as you were filming scenes and talking about.

Daniel Brooks

In fact, it more so became cuz there was supposed to be a character in a scene. That was just a no name. But then, once we had established that. Suddenly, that character turned into the bread salesman, right? Because that day we didn't have any extras, but we needed an extra to sit on this. Bench and it was ohh. Why don't I just do it and it can be the bread salesman. Because lo and behold, the guy pulls out a sandwich in the middle of the scene and eats it.

Craig Norris

Already. So you'd already filmed that? So he's.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, no, not not already filmed that bit, but the idea to have to have him pull out a sandwich at all. We've.

Craig Norris

Right, right.

Daniel Brooks

Been established, but through filming that scene, that character who pulls out the sandwich became the bread salesman. In retrospect, which is?

Craig Norris

Jasmine as well. Cool and must be found when the work. Starts having a. Life of its own. When the characters start.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, exactly.

Craig Norris

Talking to you.

Edward Williams

Correct. Yeah. And I reckon you just go with it, you don't cause cause if you're fired. You end up making this really jilted.

Daniel Brooks

Quite rigid, yeah. Product cuz? Yeah. If you just go on what's in the script, I think you could probably end up. With quite a by the numbers looking movie, but to let it organically evolve as you're filming it, you probably end up with a bit more.

Craig Norris

Spice. Were there any other things you came across in the editing stage which you then started to kind of reverse engineer a stronger?

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, for example.

Craig Norris

Thread what was.

Daniel Brooks

Originally the 1st. 1520 minutes of the movie were quite incomprehensible. Like I even having not. Having been the person to to Co write it, I knew what was going on, but a number of people who had read the script kind of went. What's the deal with the 1st 20?

Edward Williams

Minutes of this and I'll tell you what, that's a result of that was and illogical fear of exposition. In the script. And it's it's so weird because I'm. I was because I I think I was the one pushing for it, for lack of exposition, no exposition. And then, upon reflection, I thought, you know, one of my favourite movies is Indiana Jones.

Craig Norris

Is it lost crusade or temple of two? Red is the first one.

Speaker

Right.

Edward Williams

Raiders of the Lost Ark. And in that. There's a bunch of exposition. At the very beginning of the movie right, Indiana Jones is is explaining to these government people. What the arc is and where it could be and all that? Sort of stuff it brings out.

Craig Norris

The blackboard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and.

Edward Williams

In about 5 minutes, 10 minutes. I don't know how long the scene goes for. He's the the movie is set up so that everyone can understand it. And it just blows my mind that I've been watching this movie enjoying this movie. And I never really. Thought of that? Stargate. Always exposition all the time and it's great. It's wonderful. I think the thing with me in exposition is that it's when to use it and how to use. It that's important.

Daniel Brooks

So the I guess the the big thing there is that the movie doesn't have any exposition and so it sort of it wants you to get it without telling you what to get. And initially that was quite a massive problem. But then we changed the order of a couple of the scenes. While editing, editing it and for whatever reason that fixed it in a way that made the actual story harder to easier to grasp.

Craig Norris

Right.

Daniel Brooks

Because it was about and I had sort of realised this would be what was it 8 months ago at this stage, maybe even a. Year ago. Uh, something like that. But I was. I was thinking about the first couple of scenes and how I thought there's something with them. And then I realised, well, if you move this one here and you put this one forward a bit, you group the ideas better and it sort of means that people can digest this before moving on to something. Else and then moving on to another. Thing and it fixed a few continuity errors. Between scenes where, for example, the main character will be carrying his book around with him, that he has been reading. And originally a lot of the early scenes happened one after the other. And so he was going from scene to scene, but only one of those scenes had him carrying the. Book in it. When we've rearranged everything the same way, he's carrying the book now takes place right after he buys it. Not days later.

Craig Norris

And you know, many people say that the movies are made in the edit. Yes, right, that that sometimes the editing. Yeah, which is rather unknown to many non filmmaking types where. Where a film could be rescued, I mean, there's there's plenty of YouTube, there's one in about was it Star Wars was rescued in the end. Yeah, which is all about the amazing and and kind of unacknowledged work of the, I think, was George Lucas's wife, the wife who basically the documentaries claiming. And I think convincingly rescued this film that we consider.

Daniel Brooks

Yes. Yes, his. Yeah.

Craig Norris

A classic and a kind of archetypical trope, heavy, satisfyingly so. Three act kind of piece of work, and then thinking, wow, really? The editing? Yeah, really did that rather than all the special effects you hear about all the kind of. George Lucas movements. So similarly the editing.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, I think editing is. A big how?

Craig Norris

Long did do you invest in terms of time, the time, the time? It's been a.

Daniel Brooks

Long so it was filmed between May and July of 2021. And then we edited it. A lot of it initially in like September, October, November of that year. And then we kind of hit a wall and then sporadically edited it throughout 2021 last, I think this. Yeah, right.

Craig Norris

What was the war?

Edward Williams

It just the lack of experience so. I think at that stage we were both very thinking inside the box. Yeah. And so we weren't. Willing to engage with. Crazy solutions? There's a there's a thing that we come to say we've come to say editing Movies Now, which is call me a madman, and then we proceed to do some crazy, wacky thing. And half the time, half the time it fixes it.

Daniel Brooks

Turns out to be the correct then.

Craig Norris

Completely, but you you need to give yourself and ask.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, the freedom to do.

Craig Norris

For that permission? Yeah, to.

Daniel Brooks

That but being as rigid and as formulaic in our editing as we were forbidden despondency, it was kind of hard to give ourselves that away because obviously. The editing process took two years. Whereas the editing product process for just humans, which came out two months ago now was only three and a.

Craig Norris

Half months. So that's the other project you guys been working on with me and.

Daniel Brooks

With Ileus, who is in the bit of despondency, she is one of the central characters.

Craig Norris

Ah yes. Very connected network. So you're listening to me here on Edge Radio. 99.3 FM. I'm talking with Daniel Brooks and Edward Williams. Who have put together finally their little indie film project, the bin of Despondency. Is it? Would you refer to it as an indie film? How?

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, yeah.

Craig Norris

How? Yeah. What makes an indie film? What are the characteristics? What are the criteria? Which indie exists?

Edward Williams

I think something that has no funding. Yeah, so.

Craig Norris

You self funded.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig Norris

Scrape together. OK and and but.

Edward Williams

But even then, I mean.

Daniel Brooks

In the grand scheme of things, not really that expensive.

Edward Williams

No, no. But like something that's got if you get grants for it, I suppose that's also an indie film. I think. I think if you've got like. Investors, yeah. And studio backing, that's when it starts to become an independent film or or or, you know, like it's sort of, I think I think. A lot of designations with with that short film feature length film, indie film Independent Film I I Think they're all a bit rubbery and there's no real. There's no real sort of.

Daniel Brooks

Because we got into that a bit with whether or not we were calling just humans a feature because it's technically 59 minutes long, but 15 minutes of that are extra content.

Edward Williams

Bluetooth, yeah.

Craig Norris

And to be a feature there is. A kind of minimum.

Edward Williams

Some people say it's 40 minutes. Some people say it's. 60 minutes.

Craig Norris

And I guess, yeah, if you're pitching it to a.

Speaker

Yeah, and distribute.

Craig Norris

It pick it up then.

Daniel Brooks

Now, obviously the bitter despondency is a feature. It's a it's it's 80. Minutes long, yeah. I think it's about 80 minutes long.

Craig Norris

Yeah. And this would fall into. The category of features.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, it would, yeah.

Edward Williams

I think you got. You gotta think about it in terms of the modern cinema industry is based around. Getting people in. Get their money. And chewing them off after they've seen the movie and try to get keep them engaged outside of the cinema so. They've they've sort. Of they, whoever they are, have decided. That an hour and 20. Minutes an hour and a half is. Is the optimal amount of.

Craig Norris

Time. Yeah. And that's kind of been normalised. Yeah. Now it's like, you know that that's what the film is I should. Like you're gonna go to the movies. You haven't checked the length of time is.

Daniel Brooks

I I would say it's probably what I would always aim for because I don't think. It's necessary to make a movie that's more than two hours long for me anyway.

Edward Williams

Unless, unless it narratively.

Daniel Brooks

Unless unless it it. Really calls for it. I just don't see myself investing time into making something that long when I could make something that's a bit more compact and a bit harder hitting cuz. I would feel personally if I wrote something that long it would be really fluffy and full of stuff that doesn't. Need to be there, yeah. But if it's really. I would prefer to make tight. Works that yeah, that hover around the 80 to 100 minute mark.

Craig Norris

It's so interesting because then. Yeah, look, and sometimes the theatrical release, which is, you know, could be quite short. Then you have the directors car to the extended directors cart and sometimes like I was reading about The Exorcist film and how the. William Friedkin was saying, you know, the the theatre is perfect, right? It's just two hours, two hours and it's it's really tight. And but then you know the the author wanting certain scenes included in it, so it blows it out a bit. It's called the directors cut, but it's not what many people consider the best cut. No. Which is the shorter.

Daniel Brooks

And I think you'll find that's actually a common occurrence that, yeah.

Craig Norris

The excellent shorter version. It could be marketing. It could be the studio wanting to make a bit more money, so they I think Ridley Scott says the same thing about like Alien. Yeah, right. No, the actual cuts perfect. But makes money. So we created the.

Daniel Brooks

Here's this other one that's you know.

Edward Williams

I think one of the few exceptions, so one of the few exceptions to that in my mind is Lord of the Rings theatrical cut versus directors cut. Now I'm in the minority, I believe.

Daniel Brooks

No, I think you might be in the majority, OK.

Craig Norris

What's your point of view?

Edward Williams

I think the I think the directors cut is better than the theatrical cut. I think the theatrical. Cut has better. Facing it, it's better paced, but it's for me, just feels a bit shallow. Yes, but the story feels a bit more shallow.

Daniel Brooks

Right. But I think that actually plays to. Sort of. What I mean is that because it's better paced because it's it's tighter, it feels like a more digestible experience that you can put somebody through.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah.

Edward Williams

And then.

Daniel Brooks

Whereas you might get a more whole experience out of the the extended version. Yeah, yeah, like but. It, but it's not. It doesn't feel as good to watch.

Craig Norris

And I guess you on.

Daniel Brooks

A on a.

Edward Williams

Visceral level. Ohh a very good example of that is. Apocalypse now? Yes, they're Redux, redux is. The Redux has a lot of a lot more. To think about, I think.

Craig Norris

Because we've got the French, French, French plantation scene.

Edward Williams

Yes, the yeah, that's that's the one and. It completely. Bisects the movie. And and it's like you're watching 2 separate Movies Now. But in it there's some very interesting ideas put forth, but the theatrical release is much easier.

Craig Norris

To watch and I wonder if that's a question of audience where, you know, you do have that kind of encyclopaedic fandom that after an initial film they have many questions. And they begin to forensically explore and and in that space, releasing a very long. You know, directors, carts or expanded edition is. Have this audience be very satisfying in that kind of forensic encyclopaedic fandom rushes into it, looking for answers and some of those answers are very unsatisfying. I mean, I always liked the Blade Runner. Directors cut removing Harrison Ford's narration and leaving open ended the question of the replica. So some of them are. Can kind of fundamentally reshape? OK, so going back to.

Daniel Brooks

Free shape what the movie is, yeah.

Edward Williams

Yeah, yeah.

Craig Norris

OK. Is there other things that you had to cut which you really kind of were?

Daniel Brooks

Yes, there was.

Craig Norris

Ambivalent about and directors cut in the future mean.

Daniel Brooks

We I don't think it'll make it into a directors cut. We there was a. I don't know if you. Noticed this Craig, but there was a lot of montages in just. Humans, there's a few few montages now. There was supposed to be a montage in bin of despondency, and I in particular, I'm very passionate about making montages.

Craig Norris

This will have like a nice scoring behind it. And you'll have these. I remember the scene in just humans with the Launceston and would that be an?

Daniel Brooks

Yes, yes.

Craig Norris

Example of the montage scene that you're yes.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I love montage is set to music and it's just to me it's a very.

Craig Norris

Yeah, nice work well.

Daniel Brooks

I'm a fan of those sorts of things, but so I've wanted to always do. But when we wrote vintage valency, I was like, oh, we'll have a montage here, but I wasn't quite sure how to do it properly and I did not realise just how many shots I would need to make one minimum 20 minimum. Yeah, minimum.

Craig Norris

So you filmed? Shots at the time that you thought, OK, this will feed into in the editing stage a montage when you got to the editing stage and it's like.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, there's there's just a couple we we kind of we I don't neither of us really knew what we wanted. Of it. And so we filmed a bunch of stuff that could could could turn into something, but it was two or three, maybe, maybe five different shots, and it wasn't. And then when we got to editing, it was like, oh, do we? Do we do a sort? Of a subversion where it starts off like a montage and then quickly dies.

Craig Norris

Yeah, play against.

Daniel Brooks

But that kinda that that didn't work. What ended up working was only using one of those clips. And justice using it for the same purpose that we would have used a.

Craig Norris

Montage. So there's. And go behind it and.

Daniel Brooks

Well, actually there's no score at all. In fact, we actually used the audio that they recorded. We recorded that day. Of the characters talking. That we wouldn't weren't originally intending to use, so luckily they actually spoke. Yeah, like the actors actually spoke in that scene, and they were in character enough that we could use it.

Craig Norris

Right. It wasn't scripted. It's just.

Daniel Brooks

So yeah, yeah. Yes. The egg wasn't just wasn't scripted at all, but we we managed to create a nice bridging scene. That wasn't the montage that originally was planned, but it's just 122nd clip now.

Craig Norris

Right. Because normally a a montage is in service of some trope, like a training.

Edward Williams

Yes. Yeah, it it has to have a narrative purpose. And if you just.

Daniel Brooks

Montage. Yes, like I mean.

Edward Williams

I mean, Oh yeah, we're going to film montage. You you kinda go well. What narrative function is this montage performing?

Daniel Brooks

And yes.

Craig Norris

A waking up montage of kind of.

Speaker 1

Exactly what was the.

Craig Norris

Purpose of the montage that this one scene.

Daniel Brooks

Is this one montage? It was the IT was a montage of these two established characters becoming friends with another one. And it. Yeah. And so that kind of works in your head, but it ended up, I think actually better like serving a bit better in this movie because it's a bit more low key and it's not as energetic.

Craig Norris

I can see that.

Edward Williams

And also another thing too is that in the script and in the performance, there was a bonding moment between those two characters in a 5 minute long dialogue scene, which? If if we'd done the montage and we'd kept the montage in, we would have double. Up. Yeah, on that. On that narrative function.

Speaker

Right.

Daniel Brooks

So ultimately it turned out for the. Better, but it was a good learning experience just for me to go. Or how do I make a montage? And then we went on to make three of them in just humans. Which are and they were all really good, so yeah.

Craig Norris

It is interesting to hear this because it does seem that normally when you talk about the challenges which can face. Production of movie, you know, it seems here that the the main challenges were at the editing stage in terms of the time. Devoted to it or.

Edward Williams

Yeah, yeah, yes.

Craig Norris

Would you say the challenges? But I mean it seems like you learned a lot from editing, but then you brought into future production.

Daniel Brooks

Definitely, yeah.

Edward Williams

I think I think it's. In my opinion, interpersonal. And I'm not talking like conflict resolution here I'm talking about. When to get people in who to get in because they might be really busy and your project might be very low down on their list of priorities. So it's it's all.

Craig Norris

About so would this be? Like an actor or a audio guy or.

Edward Williams

Actor, musician. Anyone. Really. Yeah. And so the the challenge is actually. Your ability to identify. Who to contact about what and when and how to contact them?

Daniel Brooks

And who should be doing contacting?

Edward Williams

And who should be doing the contact?

Craig Norris

How did and how did? You find that mapped out with bin and the despondency did it.

Daniel Brooks

It was very we had a very messy time. Yeah, with with that sort of stuff initially.

Speaker

Who was the?

Craig Norris

Most difficult or challenging too? Ohh not names.

Daniel Brooks

I don't wanna, I don't think.

Craig Norris

But just like like there.

Daniel Brooks

Was any like particular person that we had too much like the most issue with it was just that? We sort of week by week. We're going alright, we got to all get together. And do. This and we didn't. I think we we kind of because we were, we were so heavily involved with both of us doing the same amount of work and all at once. The actual communications was a bit muddled. But now going forward, I'm the only person doing that. So it feels more streamlined. So everybody's coming to the same source.

Edward Williams

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker

And by that.

Craig Norris

Right, because that role is like you've got a director on a film. Yeah. And cinematographer in a film. So I know in just humans.

Daniel Brooks

You were a production manager and I was technically the production manager. I've I've been a despondency as well.

Edward Williams

And I was technically the Co production manager and and it was a very superfluous role for me. Yeah, because like Daniel said, we were very keen on on keeping everything split down the middle. You know, it's half your movie, half my movie. So we have to be 5050 on every responsibility. And so rather than going well, my strength is in this area and your strength is in that area. Let's specialise into those areas we're like, oh, well, we don't know if that's 5050. We don't know if that's a fair workload.

Daniel Brooks

And and we played around with it back then because we were going like, oh, you're the director of, well, I'm the director of people and you're the director of technology. Yeah. And at the at the time, even some of the people that were like, ohh, but, like, pointing at me and going. But you're the director, director. And I'm like, yes. Yes, I am.

Craig Norris

Yes, I guess it's either they're the myth of film makers at the director, like you've got these Alfred Hitchcock figures, or William freaking. Who are these powerful? But again, that's a bit of. A myth, isn't it? That that, that. Need not be it's.

Edward Williams

Reality I think, I think.

Daniel Brooks

I think, yeah, I think ultimately we've settled more into suitable roles with that, that, yeah and it's more streamlined. Everyone knows what they're doing and what they should be doing. And as you said on the walk down here, it was a. We sort of, as we've gotten more into doing it that way. We know when to give the other person a job or when to.

Edward Williams

Because you know, I I might not be doing anything for a month. Yeah. And before I would feel guilty about Ohh Daniel's doing something. He's contributing to the to the movie and and then. But then. I I'd be doing work and he'd be doing nothing. And so it's sort of if you, if you kind of if you're not so caught up in the minutia of it all. You just sort of have it. You you take it in faith that the other person is. Contributing and they are.

Craig Norris

Yes, and you avoid entering a. Bin of Despondence exactly.

Daniel Brooks

Yes, and actually a great example of that has been the last month and a bit where. I did an inordinate amount of prepping work for the screening that's in two weeks. Like every day for a while there, just getting things little things sorted, ordering in things to make DVD's and all that. Sort of stuff. While you weren't doing that, that.

Edward Williams

Much I was. I was on the couch and playing mini. Golf. But you see, you got.

Daniel Brooks

But now I've set everything up so that everybody's now got a task like and everybody who's involved. In getting it sorted to get screened has a task that they do and now I've got nothing to do because I've given them all their.

Edward Williams

And and you know, I think. The fact that I had a holiday and and I'm still on this holiday means that I am better equipped to tackle the next project and serve the next project better. Yes, I think if you if you go into it with this, this. Feel guilty about not contributing then. You you end up hurting the relationship and the projects because. You don't give your spells yourself, space and time to actually assess what you need to be doing. Yeah. And you just get in the way. You double up on tasks, you know.

Craig Norris

And it seems it's worked really well. You guys have worked on a number of projects now together and this duo. Is is now this next apex. So I guess wrapping up we have the K pop show coming on all the K pop audience would start.

Speaker

And we have.

Craig Norris

On it's.

Edward Williams

I was. I was listening to some K Pop the other day just to see what it was all about.

Craig Norris

I notice something different about you. Certain K pop bounce. Next step, do you have any K pop experiences? No. So but experiences you do have that. We've covered the filmmaking for the bin of despondency. So people do want to find out more where can.

Daniel Brooks

They go, they can go to my Facebook page.

Speaker

It's a great.

Daniel Brooks

Sign. It's a great place. Maybe Craig can put that off. That's a great idea.

Craig Norris

Yeah, I'll put that in the show notes, which you can get to via my Facebook page to meet your mothership Facebook page or edgeradio.org dot AU or the YouTube or Twitch spot.

Daniel Brooks

But I guess to reiterate, it's screening at the Tarona Community Hall on the 7th and the 8th of October, both at 7:00 PM. And you can buy tickets there. You can buy them online through. Send means you can buy them there. That's totally fine.

Craig Norris

And it's it's if people want to find the origin source, they can search your name. Daniel Brooks on Facebook.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah. So. Yes, Sir, Daniel. OK S.

Craig Norris

And I'll put those. Links up on the show notes for media mothership. Any final words guys? Edward. Daniel.

Daniel Brooks

Ohh well, I hope people come to watch it. It's been four years since it was named. And look forward to the future, because we've already got two scripts written for the next few years, so yes.

Craig Norris

So I said. So film festivals in the future, maybe. Yes. Yes. Wow and.

Edward Williams

We've gone in with the strategy. Now, yeah. Brilliance.

Daniel Brooks

Where we're months ahead of where we should be.

Craig Norris

Yeah, well, it would be so good to look back on these interviews I've had you in for this the second one, and I'll play certain excerpts of them and says, you said this. Let's now.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Oh.

Craig Norris

Measure up.

Edward Williams

Ohh I I was wrong. I was wrong Craig I.

Speaker

It's fine.

Daniel Brooks

Was wrong. That's a halted task.

Craig Norris

So do go check it out. That's been of despondency screening next week. No two weeks time, 2 weeks time. You can find out more via show notes today's episode. It's been a great.

Daniel Brooks

Just two weeks from now, yeah.

Craig Norris

Daniel able to have you on and all the best we've been of despondency. I'm also thinking we should. We should talk about films in the future. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, keep listening. Now we've got coming up next. Actually, we've got to.

Daniel Brooks

Yeah, that could be pretty good. I would like that idea.

Craig Norris

Station IDs, then complicated by King. See and then after that is the K pop show with DJ TJ and DJ CJ.






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