Episode 81 - With host Craig Norris, Special Guest MC Dent and Co-Host Taylor Lidstone.
First Broadcast on Edge Radio, 5th July 2024.
Join us as we continue our deep dive into Den of Geek’s article, “The Best WrestleMania Matches of All Time,” focusing on their top picks: The Hardy Boyz vs. Edge and Christian vs. The Dudley Boyz (WrestleMania X-Seven), The Rock vs. Hollywood Hogan (WrestleMania X-8), and Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker (WrestleMania 25).
We bring in wrestling aficionado MC Dent to discuss why these matches are legendary and what makes them stand out.
We’ll explore insights from Tara Lomax and Mark Williamson’s article, “WrestleMania XL: The Greatest Story Ever Told (Part One),” breaking down four key aspects of wrestling:
The Blurring of Reality and Fiction
Audience Participation
Serialized Storytelling
Cultural and Political Commentary
Tune in for an engaging and in-depth look at some of the greatest moments in WrestleMania history!
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TRANSCRIPT
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CRAIG NORRIS
All right, welcome to a media mothership here on Edge Radio in Nepal, Luna, Hobart TAS. On the show, we. Explore how media can shape our understanding of the world around us. I'm your host. Doctor Craig, PhD, joined by Lord Taylor.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
PhD.
CRAIG NORRIS
You're not. Yeah, people doubt whether I'm actually a doctor. I bumped in someone from the studio and they said the doctor thing you put on in front of your name, that's just you stick, right? That's just you you put and I said no. I've done the P8. Don't I sound like I've done a PhD on the radio? Obviously. Anyway I can give you Lord Taylor, because you've got that, you know qualification.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Of the Scottish. Plot of. Yeah, which I love. To hear about so little Taylor and MC Dents will give you the MC Dent character tonight.
MC DENT
I'm happy with that, that works.
Speaker
And.
CRAIG NORRIS
Have you got any emceeing around the corner? I know you've been busy, Adelaide. Was it the last convention you were?
MC DENT
At yeah, I was at Adelaide in June for AFCON where I got to interview voice actor Bryce Papenbrook and also Lady Beard, which was incredible, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
You see me? Lady, did the J pop music?
MC DENT
J Pop death metal singing cutesy idol cross dressing professional.
Speaker
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Wrestler. Wow. Yeah, it's completely forgotten about that phenomena, and it's still out there, so we should do some of that in Kpop unlimited.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Sounds.
CRAIG NORRIS
Anyway, but before I forget, by the end of the show, is there anything coming up? Because I know you also do the quiz show occasionally any anything for people to keep.
MC DENT
An eye on I mean if anyone wants to see a quiz night Republic Wednesday, 7:00 PM every Wednesday. Post to quiz right there. I don't write the questions, that's a. That's a pub trivia quiz in terms of pop culture quizzes, I've sort of retired them just for the time being.
CRAIG NORRIS
OK.
MC DENT
Because they're becoming a chore, and when you're not getting paid for something, you want to make sure that you enjoy it. Yeah, and it you don't treat it like a chore, because otherwise there's other things you could do.
Speaker
Yes.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes. Wise words, wise words. Excellent. Well, the main topic for detainees discussion is going to be jumping back into that huge list we were going through from Den of Geek, which was rolling through the top. Was like 20 matches or something you got to.
MC DENT
The top 15, the top top 15 WrestleMania wrestling matches.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Raise that.
Speaker
There you go.
CRAIG NORRIS
Sorry, I've I've take yes. That's it. And we're down to the the. Three, right, the top three, top four, four. OK. Right, right. I hadn't watched the top that one. Alright, alright, so we need to go back. So that's what we're going to be deep diving into. Basically an exploration of these and I've been doing a little bit of homework so I've watched.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Wow. Ohh waiting.
CRAIG NORRIS
Two of those matches and an abridged version of their number one. Choice. But I was reading an academic well, skimming an academic article. Around this and they broke down four key. Parts of wrestling which are interesting to to analyse. One is the the blurring of reality and fiction. So these are moments where you know, obviously professional wrestling.
Speaker
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Can blur that line, right? There are moments in a wrestling match which are are real, like someone's really been damaged or hurt. Then there's fiction as well. There's the gimmicks. Which is a specific term, right? The idea that that the personas or is it that the personas are gimmicks themselves or?
MC DENT
The Yeah, the personas that they the the that they have are called gimmicks and usually they're somewhat influenced by the people in real life.
CRAIG NORRIS
So the rivalries, they'll have the that they're scripted, but also. So potentially drawing upon real life animosity between who they are.
MC DENT
Or yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One of the most famous instances of this is 1997 had a rivalry between two wrestlers called Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, where they just genuinely did not like each other.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right.
MC DENT
UM. Brett Hart cause he was a bit more old school and he saw Shawn Michaels being a huge show off and he thought that Michael was using his political clout to bury him and his friends and Michael's at that point was self. Admittedly very angry, very bitter, very, very peeled up and he was an extremely talented acrobatic wrestler. That had so many personal demons and was just he enjoyed throwing his weight around and. One of the really strange parts about this rivalry is it becomes extremely personal because by the end of it, they're factions. The Heart Foundation for Bret Hart and Degeneration X for Sean Michaels, they're factions. Near the end were becoming very antagon, antagonistic towards each other, but they're sort of the metatextual level. We can tell Brett Hearts getting upset with Sean Michaels because Sean Michaels.
Speaker
Yes.
MC DENT
Having also turned heel, he's also playing a bad guy. He's stealing his spot as the main. Bad guy in the company.
CRAIG NORRIS
And these phrases? Are they the gimmicks as well? Like if you're a heel or a baby face, is that a the the gimmick they have the persona? Is that an example of a persona or is it a much deeper concept there? I guess the heel and the baby face are. The heel is. Kind of crudely put, the villain and the baby face is the hero. But it can be much more complicated than that.
MC DENT
It's more so that a heel is someone you Boo and a baby face is someone. That you cheer. And Brett Hart during that year he really played with the concept of it because he's Canadian. So he was a heel and and he also has a huge fan base in the in, in, in Europe. So he was a heel in the USA. He was explicitly anti American, but he was still a baby face in. Canada and the rest of the world.
CRAIG NORRIS
And so that's so. So there we have this kind of personas and this leads to the second point this article says. Which is audience participation cause I guess if you if you understand how the gimmicks are working, part of it is is then being able to the audience themself, shaping the narrative right. There are moments in games or games in matches which we'll talk about today where the fans themselves really have. Added to direct the storyline in a way and but we'll get around to that. So audience participation then serialised storytelling and this is something I did find to be one of those really fun kind of barriers of entry where. You're dropped in if you're doing. It's the wrong way to get into wrestling. Obviously, to look at WrestleMania because as you were saying, it's the culmination of these stories and this is the pay off. And so I was having to watch YouTube explanations of these matches, which basically then fill in the last 2-3 years worth of back story. Leading up to. To that, but the storytelling is really key, isn't it, that interconnected to understand these matches? We're unpacking a tonne of interconnecting storylines.
MC DENT
It's very it's like reading comic books. It's very difficult to know when to jump in. So you basically just have to start and hope that they're going to show some flashbacks, show some older stuff and incorporate it because usually they'll incorporate, you know, previously on.
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MC DENT
On on the shows RAW and Smackdown, which are the two flagship shows, but also something they do that's really useful is that they'll also play sort of like a best of package like a height package, a video right before a major match, basically giving you all the Cliff notes that you need. So you know what's happening. You know what the relationship is between the the characters between the wrestlers when they step into the ring. So it'll bring you.
CRAIG NORRIS
Up to speed and many people I guess, can compare wrestling to some degree to soapies to TV soapies that are ongoing and they have this huge. Ensemble cast. I mean going for decades and you know you you need to understand these characters, their their histories and and I guess in those cases fans also do some of that heavy lifting with YouTube pieces they create. So that's the third one. The 4th one is cultural and political commentary that wrestling can serve as a form of cultural political commentary, and that there are ways in which the matches that you watch. Are also critiques of social and political issues through these performances. Certainly I I found some of the older ones interesting to watch because of then watching commentary tracks of fans later talking about. How? How some of it's dated really badly, particularly the the the treatment of some of the female wrestlers and the way the commentators were describing those female wrestlers early on. So that and in fact I did see Hulk Hogan weirdly at one of the Trump rallies, right? So yeah, they must be this kind of political blurring that some of these. And of course, Jesse Ventura. Became a politician as well, governor of.
MC DENT
Yeah. He became, yeah, mayor. And then he became Governor of Minnesota. And Hulk Hogan, who or let's let let's his real name, Terry Belia. The guy who plays Hulk Hogan. The character was so jealous about that that he he he attempted to run for president because he and Jesse Hogan and Ventura are they're they're old rivals from the 1980s so.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes. What character was Vessy Jesse Ventura? Was that his his wrestling?
MC DENT
Jesse Ventura is the is the wrestler name. I don't know what I don't know what what his real life name is I.
CRAIG NORRIS
You're kidding.
MC DENT
Can't really stuff my head, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. So obviously, yes, some politics might bleed into the type of entertainment which is engaged with. All right. So all that and more we'll get into in today's media mothership.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
James George Janos.
CRAIG NORRIS
I was this Jesse Ventura.
MC DENT
And a lot of them will just sort of just change their names around. So 111 wrestler who was extremely popular in WWE and. The about 10 years ago and is now one of the main guys in AW in WWE is called Daniel Bryan and he goes by his real name now, which is Brian Danielson. So sometimes they just literally just swap their names around and that's that.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, right. And and I guess the rock also is now known through his Dwayne Johnson. I'm trying to think in in movies if he performs under that name.
MC DENT
Or, well, because the the the rock is owned by WWE, then the name of the Rock is owned. So he, so he legally.
CRAIG NORRIS
Ohh really? The copyright owned. Bundled up as awe.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Really. That's. Yeah, that's what his film credits don't say the.
Speaker
Yes.
CRAIG NORRIS
Rock. No, they don't know that. That's one reason I don't know that. Why, really? Because I guess. Yeah. In in reviews, movie reviews for a film that has the rock in it, they'll refer to him as the rock and maybe in brackets, Dwayne Johnson or Dwayne Johnson. And then in brackets the.
MC DENT
Everyone calls him the rock.
CRAIG NORRIS
Rock, but they won't put his name the Rock, as the credit in the movies, because that's.
MC DENT
And and even then, the rock is a it's a nickname for his original in character name in storyline name, because originally he was introduced as Rocky Maivia because his dad. Was Salman, Rocky Johnson and his maternal grandmother? Sorry, grandfather. His maternal grandfather was High Chief Peter Maivia. So it was combining because he's a third generation wrestler, so it's combining his dad's first name and his maternal grandfather's surname, Rocky Maivia.
CRAIG NORRIS
I see. Wow. Yeah. Look, it was interesting in the homework I was doing, there was, I think it was the. The match the Bret Hart versus Stern Austin match is that anyway in the in the lead up to that they had the rocks first bout. I think as a wrestler and it was fascinating to see the critique of that that you know this kind of format. Of character that would go on to become so key. Yeah. Really fascinating. All right, well, let's, let's get going with the list. So the number four that we're up to was the Heidi Boys versus the edge and Christian versus the Dudley Boys to introduce this, the article talks about it. Being have you seen this?
MC DENT
Yes, I have. I watched it specifically for.
CRAIG NORRIS
OK, right. So we. This so the article talks about it as being these, so this is a three tag team match. And it's it had already been already stolen. The show with the crazy leather match the previous year and summer slam then did the rematch, calling it tables, letters and chair match, which was just the same thing but with more emphasis on the table spot and a few chairs thrown in. That was an improvement. Leading to the three teams to give it one more go. At what is considered by many to be the all time best WrestleMania, so these are the six men up in the game completely. It was 16 minutes of insanity with these teams putting themselves through hell, including an iconic shot of Jeff Hardy. Hanging from the suspended tiles, leaving himself open for the edge, Spearing him into the ladder. To increase the stakes, each party had a helper to do a run in with spike aiding the Dudleys litre eating the Heidi's and rhino eating edge, and Christian. They gave it their all to finish the trilogy and it still holds up as one of the best and most chaotic ladder matches of all times. Right, So what? What? What did we just do that? Explain that.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
What does that mean?
MC DENT
So a lot of match for anyone. Who doesn't know is. There's a prize at the very top of the ring. It's being suspended from a cable. Usually it is a belt, and whoever gets it first and unhooks it and returns to the ground while holding it.
CRAIG NORRIS
Is the winner. So you've literally got to climb up a letter, and this is a normal letter. That's in that kind of a.
MC DENT
Framed, zay shape. They have started using trick letters in more recent years that have inbuilt crumple spots for when they use them as weapons and hit people with them or when they have or often something that really relies is actually.
Speaker
Right.
MC DENT
Throwing someone onto a ladder that's horizontally suspended? Yeah, just off the.
CRAIG NORRIS
Ring. So this is that first point blurring reality and fiction. So obviously they don't really want to seriously injure people with letters. So there are crumple points on letters which are designed to. Then you can weaponize the letter, and those crumple points will mean. That to an outside person who will look like a rule letter, has done a lot of damage, but really it's it's been designed to crumple in a certain spot so that that person isn't.
MC DENT
As badly injured. Yep. So the the idea is that it'll it'll. It'll. Yeah. It'll crumple so that they can, they can sell the idea that they've been injured. And there are ladders that they can climb. But there are because they have to climb to get to the top. But yeah, they are crumble points built so that they don't, you know, actually smash each other around and destroy each. With actual aluminium letters similar to how there are always folding trestle tables that get set up and people get put through those, those tables are tricked as well. They have the designed to crumple.
Speaker
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
In the middle right? How about the chairs that are often used to then? Whack the wrestlers. Those chairs also.
MC DENT
Those are real steel chairs.
CRAIG NORRIS
Used all the time.
MC DENT
The house, that's actually something that wrestlers have comment on. It's like it's it's well known that, you know, it's fake in the sense that match matches are predetermined. They or they know who's going to win and that they're pulling their punches so they don't actually injure the other person. But the one thing that you can't fake is a steel chair.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah.
MC DENT
So often there, there, there, there are. There are shortcuts, so you might have someone you know when they get hit with a steel chair, they'll put their hands right up in their face and.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
MC DENT
Their handset. They make most of the impact right, but there are sometimes where they get smacked in the. Face. With the chair and it's very real. One of the most infamous instances of that is mankind versus the rock. At the Royal Rumble.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yes.
MC DENT
In 1999, Mankind gets handcuffed and he has to get they agreed upon. I think six shots, six chair shots. The rock was gonna be hitting with six shots to get him off stage, but they they angled themselves wrong. So the rock ends up hitting mankind in the face in the. Worried because he's fully in character as the main heel of the match, the main heel of the company at that point, smacking this other dude over the face of the real steel chair in front of his wife and kids. So that cause of tension between Mick Foley, who played mankind, and Wayne Johnson, the rock for a very long time.
CRAIG NORRIS
Ah yeah. That'll be tough if your family's watching. And you're actually getting and again that idea of. You know, everyone knows that wrestling. You know you're you're not really seeing the hospitalisation after these people, but there are moments where there is some really that blurring does happen, so you never quite know when you're watching a wrestling match, if that's actually real damage.
MC DENT
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
In this one, the Heidi Boys versus Edge and Christian versus the Dudley Boys, was there any real damage done in this one? One? Or was it stayed, stayed within the the fiction.
Speaker
This.
MC DENT
There's no there. There was no real damage done as far as I know, which is astounding. When you look at the main spot. So again, the main spot at the most famous part of this is Jeff Hardy climbs up a ladder, grabs the grabs the the belts, he said, and then one of the Dudley Boys kicks the light out underneath him, so he's dangling. 18. Foot off the.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right, yeah.
MC DENT
Off the ring and then edge climbs most the way up a ladder and does a full on spear tackle into Jeff Hardy, who's dangling off a rope 18 feet in the air and they both come crashing down and it's just ridiculous. And you go how do these guys know how to?
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes.
MC DENT
Land so well.
CRAIG NORRIS
And what's the? What was the audience participation from watching that? Did you?
MC DENT
They were just. Screaming the entire time. If it's so, there are some matches that have they, they'll they'll have chance or they'll have certain things coming in fits and starts. But this was just they were just cheering their minds off the entire time, cheering, cheering like madmen. So this.
CRAIG NORRIS
Also would be a case of these performers very cleverly. The escalating and knowing how to really pick up the kind of fever pitch that was happening within the audience.
MC DENT
Yeah, exactly. It's because because because wrestling is not a competition, it's a story. And so matches will have an orientation, a complication, rising action and climax. And and it's now with falling action. And there are many, many fake climaxes always, which is usually a kick out where some will. Be pinned and the.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes, yes, yes.
MC DENT
Rep will slap the another 123 and they'll kick. Out at 2:00, we'll get or there'll be outside interference. It's no disqualification. And the other guy will get pulled off at at at. Who, and often the audience, will count along with that.
Speaker
Hmm.
MC DENT
But audiences will also just go all in if they're seeing, like, if they're not, if they're, if they're not seeing, like characters, they really like if they're seeing really great athletic ability, yeah, then often they'll get, they'll get hyped.
CRAIG NORRIS
Up in that as well, serialised storytelling, was there anything in the story here that you really engaged with that you thought was also part of why this is such a great?
MC DENT
WrestleMania match. I didn't do my homework on this one. I didn't watch any of the roles or smackdowns of 4X7, I just. I just watched this match in isolation and usually cause cause RAW airs on Monday night. It's it's it's aired every Monday night, almost every Monday night since 1993. Smackdown's been on since 1990. And if you watch the raws and smackdowns before you watch a major pay-per-view like WrestleMania, you'll get a lot more out of it, but I didn't. So I just, I just, I had a good time watching it, but I just saw three teams of two plus their help is just all being this.
CRAIG NORRIS
Night out of each other. Anything you found kind of cultural level that was weird or exciting? The the gender, the ages, the.
MC DENT
It is. It is mostly just like I think most of the faces in the out here are just like beautiful young men. And then you've got the Dudley Boys who are a little bit older, a little bit heavier, and then there's a run from Leeta, who was working with the Hardy Boys at that point and when she. You like goes like? Yeah. And rips her shirt off. Just so you know, everyone can Ogle her. It's like, OK, fair enough. We're we're very much also the the mesh shirts that the Heidi boys wear are very sort of you kind of expect them to see you kind of expect to. See those? Guys at.
CRAIG NORRIS
A Gothic nightclub? Yes. All right. So now moving on to and I do have some audio. For this one, so we'll set. It up with a bit of audio.
Speaker
Right. Chatting for hog? A mixed reaction here at wrestle Mania.
CRAIG NORRIS
So this is this is the start of the rock verse, the Hollywood Hulk Hogan match from WrestleMania 8. This is the number three pick on best WrestleMania matches and I guess to read the description of it from the days going from Rocky may may. My view my view, so that was the. Rocks initial character. Team to the most electrifying man in sports. Enter team at the Rock has had a knack for adapting to the crowd's reactions, and this is what I found so great about. This match is that it? It explains how important crowd reaction is and where you've got two performers that can. Go off script I guess and allow the audience to rewrite in a way what had been planned. So to read further from this. It goes on to say it's what gave us Hollywood rock and the final boss great name for the rock. The final boss is that his heel name is that.
MC DENT
Was it's his, it's. It was his real name in the story for Rustlemania 40 Hollywood rock was his heel name in the build up to WrestleMania 19, but yeah, he's for as much as people criticise him for being.
CRAIG NORRIS
All right.
MC DENT
Extremely risk averse in terms of his movies and his products that he did. Hills. The rock has never, ever been scared of getting booed as. A performer.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah. And that's what's great to see in either case, unpacking this match so goes on to say that this is the the first one on one, I guess the rock and the Hulk Hogan have and it was able to evolve the match. Into something truly epic and unforgettable, showing the true magic that can come from reading the room and correctly playing the crowd. So goes on to explain that Hogan went into the match in his heel New World order. Sooner, fresh from attempting vehicular manslaughter on the rock, and he did have to look at the the YouTube for that. It's fantastic. So we can talk about that storytelling a little bit. Then it goes on to say that having gone from one of from WWF for so many years and being in front of a passionate Canadian crowd. Hogan received a hero's welcome, which is what we're hearing. And the police gradually realised they were more into Hogan than the rock, even if it wasn't a technical masterpiece. And Hogan definitely seemed to have injured his ribs legitimately. The two put on a hell of a show that absolutely should have been the main event. Even the post match. Visual of a hurt and humbled Hulk Hogan timidly asking for permission to show respect, came off. Extra special. All right, so let's unpack that. So blurring reality and fiction. So what's the fiction? Storytelling, I guess, of this. Match.
MC DENT
Ohh man. Well, first of all, Hogan's in his Hollywood Hulk Hogan NWO incarnation. So for some context there, Hogan wearing the gold and red was the main face of the WWF.
CRAIG NORRIS
That's his classic 80s early 90s persona. And he'd ripped the yellow shirt. And you know. I am a real American.
MC DENT
Yeah, yeah. With real, real American is a theme song. And you know what you gonna do when the USA runs wild on you, telling, telling.
Speaker
Playing.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing watching some of that stuff.
MC DENT
Telling all the all the Little Hulk maniacs you know work hard. Sorry. Train hard. Say your prayers. Eat your vitamins. Not definitely, not steroids. And basically, uh, he around the time of the steroid trial around 19 around 1993 was when the steroid trial happened and.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. I didn't realise that. So what was? What was that the the wrestling got busted for? Being on steroids? Yeah.
MC DENT
More specifically, Vince McMahon got investigated by the feds because they thought he was distributing steroids to wrestlers in the WWF.
CRAIG NORRIS
Which is illegal.
MC DENT
I it well, it's definitely illegal if you're presenting it as an actual sport. So before that, KFC had been an extremely well guarded secret. Kayfabe is what is what they call the actual. It's a, it's it's a corruption. The pig Latin phrase for be fake, which is what they would say that that's OK.
CRAIG NORRIS
Running. Ah. Ah.
MC DENT
There is the the fictional world.
CRAIG NORRIS
Of wrestling, right, like everyone knows, it's staged. Everyone knows that there's a.
MC DENT
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
And winner. And they've rehearsed it before. They're going to do it. And what we're really watching is, yeah. Work stumped.
MC DENT
Yeah. Work prior prior to prior to the steroid trial. The fact that it was fake was in, well, stage was an extremely well guarded secret. There's a brilliant story of Vincent Mann having Ted Dibiasi who became known as. $1,000,000 man who was this extremely evil? Well, moneyed, one of the best heels ever. Who would just like torment people. And they do these awful things. One of the one of the best things he ever he ever did as a heel was telling a kid. If you bounce this basketball 10 times with your 500 bucks. So the kid bounces it nine times on the 10th. One Ted Dibiase, he kicks it away. And he's just so good at being. He's just so good at and he's he's gimmick. His stick is that he's just got an obscene amount of money. He's completely loaded. He wanted to be a champion. He couldn't win the belt, so he made his own, called the $1,000,000 bill he just bought one and there was a story about Vince McMahon, the head of the WWF, sitting down with Ted Boston and saying, OK, here's what we're gonna do, because you gonna play this game called the $1,000,000 man.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right.
MC DENT
We're going to play pay for private limos to and from the venue for you. The other guys are gonna be, you know, driving. We'll have. We'll fly you around first class. You'll stay in five star hotels. We are going to do everything that we can to convince people that you are actually loaded and playing this character in real life. However, in exchange you are going to be the most hated man in the wrestling business. And Ted Dibiase, he looked him straight in the eye and said.
CRAIG NORRIS
1.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MC DENT
I am your man. So it was extremely well guarded and then essentially because McMahon was getting invested by the feds for giving, distributing, allegedly distributing steroids, he basically had to go very public and say, OK, it's all staged. So preterm it isn't real. It's not. It's not a competition, it's a story.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right.
MC DENT
And Hogan testified against McMahon.
CRAIG NORRIS
Really. So Hogan said that this was a real sport.
Speaker
He's.
MC DENT
He. No, no, he testified, saying that McMahon had told him to to quote unquote. Yet on the yeah, he basically, yeah, said that he banned me, giving him steroids and encouraging the distribution, basically in exchange for immunity because he was religiously using steroids for all the 1980s and early 1990s.
CRAIG NORRIS
Ohh to tapes Ferris I see. Wow.
MC DENT
And so essentially, he he parted with the WWF on extremely bad terms, and he went to WCW, who was the main competitor at the time.
Speaker
Right.
CRAIG NORRIS
Because, OK, So what happened to McMahon? Did McMahon be found, or was he found guilty?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Of of, of, of Steroids.
MC DENT
In the end, I think either they settled out of court or he was found not guilty. In terms of. I think it was suggested that that wrestlers take them. But I I but that was the real.
CRAIG NORRIS
Changed from I I hadn't been. I hadn't. I I've hardly forgotten that there was this. This. Since that wrestling was. Real and those that would be saying it's not real as a real debate that yeah, they all that came to a head during the steroid debate and the fact that man had to say no, it was all because, yeah, I guess part of his defence there is that it's all fake. So why would I be? Pushing steroids because they don't need the steroids to to win. It's not a competitive space in that sense. I guess.
MC DENT
But but also I mean because there's no, you know, real life competition, there's no, I guess no one's using it to get ahead because it's all predetermined.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. Yeah, right. So as in the Olympics, where the doping of certain countries brings discredit into the sport.
MC DENT
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Because it's meant to be a level playing field and it's meant to be on drugs. Yeah. Yeah. Here. Yeah. If you say, well, actually, it's the the the playing field is not level because it's fictional.
MC DENT
Hmm, that's like we thought we we, we we we we often look at steroids as being a very negative thing. And if you're using them solely to get muscular, yeah, they are. But they're also, you know. When you.
Speaker
Used.
MC DENT
As prescribed to actually treat injuries that won't you'll otherwise. They're a they're a valuable thing. To utilise exactly.
CRAIG NORRIS
I thought for some reason. Yeah, I guess I'm in that camp of. I've seen so much moral panic around the word steroid that it only has a negative connotation, yet it's it's it was designed, developed. For a really.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Important medical reasons or many different important medical reasons. Corticosteroid is used in. Everywhere. Every. Yeah.
MC DENT
I mean, you can get steroid cream to put. On a rash, yeah. And it's like that's, that's not gonna, you know, lead. It's not gonna lead to an enlarged heart and.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Or biceps?
MC DENT
But but anyway, 22 inch killer pythons, brother. But.
CRAIG NORRIS
So and this is Hulk Hogan, right? So.
MC DENT
Yeah, he jumped ship to WCW, which is very different because WWF was all about the big comic book characters. WCW was all. This is a real sport, it's it's this proper wrestling and they just hated him from day one the the audiences just gave him very mixed responses at best and so and bash at the beach. 1996. He basically joins these other guys. He turns heel, he becomes a bad guy for the first time.
Speaker
Hmm.
MC DENT
Since he's been wrestling in Japan in the late 1970s, early 19. He's then he becomes Hollywood Hulk Hogan, the leader of the New World Order, which is basically the ultimate heel stable in WCW, and he becomes the main villain of the of the of the of the corporate of the. The promotion and suddenly he goes getting mixed mixed responses from doing this same same old style baby face routine. So people suddenly love him. He's the main bad guy and they just can't wait to see him get his comeuppance. So the fact that they had him and the NEO or the New World Order had disbanded. WCW had folded McMahon. Its assets and then he brought.
CRAIG NORRIS
In so here we have bleed up to this match, so that collapsed.
MC DENT
Yeah. He brought in. He brought in Hogan and the other team's original members, Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, who had originally been big members of the WWF in the early 1990s. Those three came back as the original incarnation of the NWO, and they came in and they attacked WWF like we've already bought WCW. Now we're gonna come and fight.
CRAIG NORRIS
The WWF and in terms of storytelling, that's great, right? And that's going to revitalise.
Speaker
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
The the story world there, it's going to introduce. Again, this reality and fiction blurring like Hulk Hogan and those guys were really disruptive of the WWF, and there's probably a lot of bad blood that's real. And the fact that they were antagonistic. Towards the WWF. And becoming the WWE plays into the story. They then. Perform leading up to WrestleMania.
Speaker
Yeah.
MC DENT
Just the and the. The work that they do in lead up with with rock and and Hogan where the Hogan's all like the fans turned their back on me brother, which is the reason which is his origin story from the original heel turn in 96 and the rock goes you're part of so many wrestlemanias do you have one more in you so the sort of the implication that the rock's gonna beat Hogan into being a good guy again.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MC DENT
And that happens, you know.
CRAIG NORRIS
Hold on. Go back. I mean, because there's there's a point in this explanation where they talk about Hulk Hogan driving a semi into the Rocks ambulance.
MC DENT
Yeah. Again, this is just.
CRAIG NORRIS
This is just his heel persona. This is. Yeah. And and again, what? I guess what's really fascinating about that is leading to this audience participation is that the script going on the script, it's meant to play out with the Hulk Hogan as the heel. But. And I guess there there can be a turn, but that would happen. In the wrestling whereas. What's fascinating when you watch it is that immediately, as soon as Hogan kind of walks into the ring, there's a sense of the crowd behind Hogan, right? Not the heel, they're not. He's not being. Booed. He's being cheered.
MC DENT
That's exactly it. Cause like Canada loves Hulk Hogan, like and you're absolutely spot on. He done all these dastardly things because he's like Hollywood. Hulk Hogan is a moustache twirling villain. And Even so, despite him trying to kill the rock in Storyline, Canada doesn't even care. They're like, yeah, Hogan's back at WrestleMania.
CRAIG NORRIS
So what they, they they they're seeing the nostalgic Hulk Hogan from the 90s, like when he was the babyface of WW. Left, and it's fascinating to me that then there's moments in the commentary where they refer to, like, there's this moment where he what is it? He hooks out or something like this. Yeah. Like he he does that kind of shaking of the body and the hands. And he's he's getting all pumped up and that's I guess the signature.
MC DENT
Yeah. Move. Yeah, that's classic. Classic Hogan matches where it starts out reasonably, even, or he might be a little bit. Head and then the heel does something to shake. The heel gets a head, everything looks lost, and then whole Hogan hears everyone cheering for and rips his shirt off, starts posing points at the. Other guy goes.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right.
MC DENT
And then he does his like three or four moves. He knows cells. Switches and everyone was just absolutely stoked to see that happening.
CRAIG NORRIS
Again. Yeah. What's fascinating to me, I guess in the order that I watched it in is that that's very much about those kind of like the setups which the wrestler has like the the the signature moves. I guess the wrestler has and that they'll they'll do the signature move and in the fictional story. Telling that's coding that OK, this is this is this is a kind of final move. This is a kind of defeat of the final boss move. And what's fascinating to me is that while the audience was cheering Hogan it, it does go back to, I guess the script at the end because it's interesting as hearing about this that the. What many people point to has been great about this is that you have two performers that read the room very quickly and then because I think the the description I was hearing was that then Hogan took the lead, yeah. So whereas they'd practised the match and obviously the rock was going to be calling the shots, it then switched to Hogan calling the shots. The rock becoming the. Deal. And there's because there's a great scene where the Hogan takes his belt off and starts whipping.
MC DENT
The rock, given that the rock is half African American, it's a. Bit of a bit of an unpopular image.
CRAIG NORRIS
You know, it's so like, but then. What happens is the rock does the heel move where he he pushes the whole, Hogan goes down, then he gets the the whip and he he really goes at it, right. He's like like, like Hogan, I think got 3 whips in and they were really slow and kind of, you know. Stage. But the rock performs with such, but again it it, it creates that sympathy for Hogan going ohh man, the poor guy. No, no has he. Lost his belt? But he's really getting whipped with it. And again, all that would be the idea of that audience participation that they're reading the room. The rock is is feeding off the heel turn and but then by the end it it all becomes, oh, that's right. Because at the end the the, the two other NWO guys come into the. Being break that down. What's that? That storytelling that's happening at that final scene?
MC DENT
So basically the the, the, the whole plan was to turn Hogan face again that was always gonna happen. So essentially and one of the things that being in the NWO is if you're in the NWO you're in the NWO for life brother, so him basically. Having that face turn in during his match with the Rock, and again, there's that setup of of the rock essentially wanting to. Bring Hogan back across like it's Luke and Darth Vader. They feel haul and Nashville betrayed, and they're really angry at him. And that was a real hallmark of the NWO in WCW, he said. If they ever thought someone was going to lose, they'd always hit the ring and cause a disqualification. So it's essentially like sort of the logical extension of that is that they've lost their guys, they want to.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right.
MC DENT
Beat the snot out of him so the rock helps Hogan fight off Hall and Nash and it makes rock and Hogan look even more heroic.
CRAIG NORRIS
And then they did that wonderfully. He kind of smeltzer move of getting, like, the the rock at the end of the sentence. I guess he puts it as. Uh. Even the post match visual of a heart and Humboldt Hogan timidly asking for permission to show respect, came off as extra special right, that moment where he. Gets to perform. All those moves again and they shake and I guess it's that passing of the torch vibe or something that's going on between the rock and.
MC DENT
The Hulk? Yeah. And Hogan is a massive. Backstage, politicker. And this is the only time he's ever genuinely been happy to pass the torch, right? Because I think he sort of acknowledged cause his place in the company was a bit shaky at the time because he just, you know, spent X number of years at WCW, I think seven or eight years, WCW trying to pull the WWF out of business. So he's sort of like, all right, cool well. Obviously we lost that one rock. Is this up guy at the moment and he's like, OK, I'm not gonna politic. I'm actually gonna, you know, properly show respect as you say. And they have that handshake in the middle of. The room which? Is really sweet.
CRAIG NORRIS
And it was interesting watching it as I guess someone that knows those two personas of all the matches, this was one that I kind of had a handle on in terms of, OK, I know the. Hulk Hulk Hogan from. Growing up in the 80s, I know the rock from the movies, but it's fascinating to see. Again. How to find they are by their wrestling like, you know, knowing what the serialised storytelling is, the audience participation there, defining that the skill of being able to and I guess what it is that really I found remarkable was just increasing the fever pitch of the audience that you know recognising the audience were looking for a nostalgic Hulk Hogan.
MC DENT
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Experience. And then escalating that up and up and up and ramping it up so sparingly. Well, it was.
MC DENT
And just just just that opening shot of Hogan and Rock just sort of standing in the ring, nowhere near each other, just sort of looking around as as the audience is going, absolutely.
Speaker
It was fun.
CRAIG NORRIS
No, that face off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, again, it's interesting watching commentary pieces about that saying, you know, you know, there are moments where they'll read into the semiotics saying.
Speaker
Not.
CRAIG NORRIS
At this point, Hogans looks surprised at how the audience is reacting to his moves, or or the fact that he's throwing the rock in this. Way and yeah, it is fun. That kind of improvised theatrics that are occurring in that match. So yeah, I mean, for me, yeah, that certainly made sense in terms of getting into the background. Of it and that.
MC DENT
Something else about is it, is it? Hogan comes from that era where matches were called in the ring. They didn't. The where they matches were not choreographed in the 1980s unless you were macho man Randy Savage. So they every time you see a wrestler locking up or putting each other into like a chin lock or a headlock, there's they're whispering directions to.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right, yes.
Speaker
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. Each other. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something I did. Read about this match that it it was largely called in the ring, right. And as you're saying, right, that that's not something typically done. Yeah, old school. All right, so the we have about 5 minutes left.
MC DENT
That's enough time to talk about. #2.
CRAIG NORRIS
All right. #2, Shawn Michaels versus the Undertaker. So this match again, just to quickly to put people into context of it. The article. Is that this is the very concept of WrestleMania that that they see this is leading to. So Sean Michaels. Not the ranks over the years to become the top guy and one of the go to competitors who would constantly put on a show stopping performance at the espp VC. The Undertaker had a strength and endurance buff thanks to his undefeated streak at WrestleMania and the Extra Mystique that came with it. While the two had a feud a decade earlier, this time it felt almost mythological and the two proceeded to put on an exhibition that caught up to the hype. It was done. It was also done at the perfect time, as both men were getting. Yeah, starting to slow down. So let's, I guess, let's let's unpack what we're hearing in the background here of the Undertaker versus Shawn Michaels. Because for me. I guess just jumping forward a little bit for me. What fascinated me in contrast to the Hulk Hogan one was that. By the end of it, you start seeing all these signature moves of the wrestlers the the tombstone move that the undertaker's doing and the the choke hold and then the the flying. Kick that the. Sean Michaels does switch. Yeah, and all the commentators are saying are coding that right, saying OK. And that's the final move.
MC DENT
The Sweet chin music.
CRAIG NORRIS
That this has got to be out and he's down and he's counting out and. He keeps knocking out and for me that you know, reading into it and and some comments around it saying this was the thing that, that, that some commentators have found remarkable about this is that it was that one of these moments in at that point in history where where rarely is a signature move then disrupted. And the game of the match has to continue that typically signature move, a pin and a kind of counting down to two. Once you're at two, you're you're you're going to to probably win. And they're saying one of the things remarkable about this is that this constantly destabilised audience expectations in that way that. Those signature moves were not scripting towards an end match the. Signature like it was halfway through and. I think you. See these things are moves, and the commentators are saying, OK, I think we're going to call the match here. This is that amazing one where the The Undertaker flies. Off. The ring in one of his signature moves but then lands into the cameraman and knocks himself out.
MC DENT
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
And then they have to and again that reality of blurring and fiction, they have to. To deal with the reality of this is now off script and to fictionally. How do we give the undertaker enough time to recover, to come back in, to go back onto script. So unpack what we're hearing there. So what was the reality and fiction of this match?
MC DENT
So one of the one of the realities is that. Shawn Michaels at that point well and still today born again Christian discovered God in the early 2000s when he was on the shelf with what he thought was a lifelong injury and he'd be able to compete again and literally one day woke up after praying and his pain had gone away. So he comes back.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
MC DENT
Following in the 90s, when he was extremely spoiled, extremely petulant, prone to temper tantrums on a lot of pills and alcohol and and he's, you know, politicking his way and uh through the through through the business and trying to get people fired. Now he comes back, he's much more humble now. He's the mentor to all the other younger guys on the roster in real life. And he basically makes it a point to not take any belts he's like.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
MC DENT
I'll have a I'll have a title match with you and you're gonna. Go over me and the the the born again Christian thing really comes into play because he's basically sexy. Jesus in this it actually the the match opens with him descending from the ceiling with a white overcoat and a white hat sort of like the good counterpart of undertakers is zombie Western mortician.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker
Yeah, and.
CRAIG NORRIS
Because he took the costume of The Undertaker and then inverted it into white and then performed. Yeah, I guess. Yes. Jesus.
MC DENT
Yeah. Yeah, sexy Jesus and and that's basically the the the thrust of the match is the the undertaker at this point has.
CRAIG NORRIS
And because the Undertaker is associated with hell and the underground and the way they introduce him with the flames and rising up, it's yeah. So it's very biblical.
MC DENT
Come back from the dead twice. Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
The audience. What's so the audience participation here? They're not necessarily. I mean, they're cheering both at certain times.
MC DENT
This is very much a face versus face, because even though even though, even though Undertaker is very much associated with a lot of sort of satanic imagery, he his thing is, he's.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. OK.
MC DENT
Eventually, the law, and that's what he's the guy who plays Undertaker. Mark Callaway, was basically the most respected guy in the locker room. He's been there the longest. He was the judge in restless court. He's he he fixed disputes. So there's this sort of implication in the character of The Undertaker that he is the law. So he's basically lawful neutral and so.
CRAIG NORRIS
I see.
MC DENT
Everyone loves it, everyone adores it. We can. We can very easily assign D&D alignments to wrestling, so the audience loves both of these guys and they're both incredible performers. Undertaker at this point is the best he's ever been cuz he was kind of slow and lumbering in the 90s and he really stepped up his game in the 2000s.
Speaker
Yeah.
MC DENT
So I think it's very much a case of the audience would be happy to see either of them win. They'd be happy to see Michael's defeat Taker and win the and and and end the streak. And in terms of all the guys who could have done, I think Michaels is one of the dudes who.
CRAIG NORRIS
They they they would have been most happy and it's just saying this is scripted and it does come as a surprise to me because it feels. Going on the commenters, commentators during the match, it's like OK, well, this is the end of the streak, right? the IT really seems that it's a deserved win against the The Undertaker. But yeah, the end of it. Is, I guess. Scripted for the Undertaker to to to finally try. After uhm. Kind of being unable to do it so many times, but I guess you know I guess the the the audience, the satisfaction there for the audience would be that both wrestlers come out. Very well. At the end of this. What? What do you feel makes this match a remarkable one? You know, to be up there in the top.
MC DENT
Three, honestly, for me, I just always remember one of Michael's kick outs and just zoom in on taker and he looks absolutely beside himself. He's. Meant to six.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MC DENT
6 1/2 foot tall. Western mortician zombie he's been. The head of a cult. He's done everything. I think this is his 16th, his 16th WrestleMania where he's at that point still undefeated and he just looks utterly bewildered and terrified, going as if he's wondering if if Michaels is also the supernatural force. Obviously in real life, Mark Callaway is not a supernatural force. The character of The Undertaker is, but I think it's just a case of these two guys. You just really, they're putting absolutely everything they have into it and they're really. And and the idea that any one of those moves could be the last one, but it just keeps on going. It builds up so much anticipation.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, look, and the energy you hear in the audience is amazing as it gets to these final, yeah, kind of potential countdowns. And then yeah, there's the the scene. You were mentioning the kind of the close up on the and again the camera operators would have to know these beats potentially or or. There'd be so many camera operators around the ring. I guess that that one of them all. Going to potentially capture.
MC DENT
A face. I think it's the latter. I gotta say though, my my favourite Michael, because they had a rematch the following year where where Sean Michaels in real life basically wanted to retire from wrestling, cause someone pointed out that his his son was nine. He was halfway gone and he was like, oh, I don't want to be on the road and travelling when my son leaves home. So he was like, I'm gonna retire while I'm ahead and spend time with.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
MC DENT
Family and there's this brilliant moment where he's basically wages his career against taker. So it was built his career. It was built as.
CRAIG NORRIS
If I lose, I'm out and I'll leave. If I went right.
MC DENT
Yeah, it was. But he had cause. He had to wager his career to get a rematch, to train in the streak a second time. So and and and and the very end because these guys respected each other. So they respected. They're really good friends in real life.
Speaker
Yeah, right.
MC DENT
One, and this is a brilliant moment near the end where it's very clear Michael's can't win. He's on. He's completely split on the ground. He really can't. He can't go any longer and take her is out of respect, yelling at him to stay down and and Michael's just sort of pulls himself up and he claws himself up.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right.
MC DENT
He drags himself. Up so he's face to face with taker and take his signature taunt that he's just done on the video that we're watching is a is a throat slit with. Thumb Michaels does that intake. His face doesn't do anything, so he just cracks and smacks him across the face and take it just loses it and grabs him, puts him in a tombstone pile. Driver jumps so far in the air, and that's what it takes to to put Michaels down for the count. But these guys just work.
CRAIG NORRIS
Ah. So well together look and and the thing that makes it remarkable is worth watching if you can on YouTube. Is the scene where the Undertaker launches himself out of the ring. Onto the cameraman because I think what the he had. He'd sure Michaels had had kind of pushed one of the cameramen and I was reading online about what had happened in this this moment because allegedly what was meant to happen was the camera was meant to kind of catch and absorb the The Undertaker. But instead the timing was out and instead the Undertaker hit the camera and you hear this really noticeable something breaks. And and then he's out. He's actually. Knocked out and. And they have to they do this whole kind of theatrics and pandering cause the ref has been thrown out of the ring and Sean Michaels gets the ref back into the ring and the the the beating and arguing over something. And and it's just enough time to the rock. Sorry. The Undertaker to somehow get back into the ring and then it. And it plays out for another 10 minutes or something. Of of of their. They're exhaustion, so yeah, it's very much quite an amazing physical.
MC DENT
Match and this is one of those cases where this this this should have been the last match on the show because there was a title match after was absolutely no one cared about because they screamed the house. Down.
CRAIG NORRIS
Really, it's right.
MC DENT
Cheering, cheering for these two guys, who've both been. Both been wrestling for so long at this point, cause this is WrestleMania 25 and they've both been there since they've both been single performance since the early 90s. Sean Michaels was a A tag team champ in the 80s, so people really love these guys. They have a lot of nostalgia wrapped up in them, and yeah, there's this one is just. There's really nothing negative to say about it. It's just two guys who respect each other. Two guys are on the top of their game and two guys who.
CRAIG NORRIS
The audience absolutely adores. Yeah. Well, Marcus, we haven't gotten through the list yet. We've still got the final match, which we'll have to bring you back to. Enjoy.
MC DENT
Honestly, I I could. I could talk about the final match for a whole hour, so that works.
CRAIG NORRIS
OK, done. But thanks very much MC Dan for coming on and this has been a deep dive into two WrestleMania matches. I'll put show links to that den of Geek article for you to have a look at and some links to the. YouTube, at least of the Undertaker versus Shawn Michaels, is fully up on YouTube. If you want to watch WWE, there's bits and pieces on YouTube. There's also there's a binge hazart or.
MC DENT
Binge has literally every recorded WWE thing ever, as well as all of WCW, all of CW and all of Smoky Mountain wrestling smoky.
CRAIG NORRIS
We might explore that in the future. So yes, keep listening to Edge radio. We have K pop unlimited coming up. Next we'll Taylor wants on K pop unlimited good music. I did find 1K pop. Reference yeah, for this week that we linked to Wolverine verse, no Deadpool versus Wolverine. Is it verse? How are they phrasing it?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Might talk about that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it is, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
So that's been media mothership. Another thanks very much for listening and yeah, potentially watching us on the stream this time, the YouTube stream seem to work seems to I seem to obscure everything with the mic sense then.
MC DENT
I honestly think it adds to the ambience. It's like the fact that you've got these big old mic stands in front of people. I think it just it makes it feel more like a radio station because it is a radio.
CRAIG NORRIS
Authentic.
MC DENT
Station.
CRAIG NORRIS
Blur those lines between fiction and reality. Many people would doubt that.
MC DENT
Maybe we're trying to fake a radio station. I.
CRAIG NORRIS
Don't know. Alright, we'll now find the music to play next. Increasingly professional thanks again for listening. Thanks guys.
MC DENT
For coming on, thanks for having us.
CRAIG NORRIS
And see. You next week? Ciao.
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