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Writer's pictureCraig Norris
May 101 min read

Shogun Through the Ages: Adapting History Across Decades

Episode 68 - With host Craig Norris and cohost Taylor Lidstone.
First Broadcast on Edge Radio, 8th March 2024.



We discuss the historical accuracy and creative liberties in the different adaptations of “Shogun”. The 1975 novel by James Clavell, the 1980s miniseries, and the 2024 FX show all offer varying depictions of feudal Japan and the rise of the Tokugawa shogunate. The adaptations reflect the cultural and historical perspectives of the times they were created in, with the latest FX show aiming to present a more balanced view by incorporating significant Japanese dialogue and perspectives.




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Listen live to “Media Mothership” every Friday 4-5pm (Australian Eastern Standard Time) via YouTube, Twitch, and Edge Radio.


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TRANSCRIPT

This is an AI-generated transcript of the audio and it may contain errors. We may update or correct this transcript in the future. Please contact us if you have any questions about the information in this transcript. The audio is the official record of this episode.


CRAIG NORRIS

All right. And a snap and the crowds going wild as always here on edge radio. 99.3 FM as the dial ticks over to media mothership, shall I say, dial. Yep. I assume. Yes. Mechanics. So this is media mothership broadcasting out of Edge Radio Studios in Nepal, Lunar Hobart TAS we have. A studio which we broadcast out of, which is why the quality of the audio is. So good. Yeah. Usually you know. Yeah. I mean, obviously we're streaming also on YouTube and Twitch, which has been somewhat of a struggle over this would be a month. Now. That I've been. Desperately trying Plan B, which is to actually get the stream going, so I'm going to actually start the stream now, but we'll have to do another clap. Ohh yeah, we'll have to do another. Great. And that's of course to indicate much like we do in canned laughter for the audience to applaud as well as to help me sync up the audio later to match it to video. So this is media ownership and I'm your host Doctor Craig.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

And I'm your host Doctor Craig.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, you're a doppelganger then. You're Lord Taylor. Yes, I am. And we're streaming as well. Now we are on YouTube and Twitch on an 8 second delay. Just so when we do do something defamatory, at least for the stream clip, we can stop that in time.

Speaker 5

MHM.

CRAIG NORRIS

For us to avoid legal action internationally, yeah. Nationally, however, we are without an 8 second delay, so you know, haven't help us, yeah. Exactly. So you can listen to us on edgeradio.org dot AU via the website. Engage with us on YouTube and Twitch. Just search for media mothership. And on your FM single signal as well single single you can also SMS US in studio on 0488811707. That number again 04888. 11707. It's me, just the smaller side. We were spooking for Edge radio yesterday at the there was a kind of it wasn't clubs and societies here at the. University of Tasmania. It was a.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah. Some sort of.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, student, union and we had the always charming Ollie helping out. And I know Ollie's been working at a commercial station. Yeah, for a bit. And sometimes he would phase shift into a a commercial radio pitch. So we'd have students coming by and he'd say, you know.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Event Pavilion event, yeah. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Do you know about Edge Radio where Hobart, where Tasmania youth station, DA DA and? And he goes and we play all the freshest hits. It's like freshest hits that language only exists in commercial radio. I mean we, we I wouldn't describe edge radios, music as fresh. I'd describe it as.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yes. It does.

CRAIG NORRIS

No. Well, no. I wouldn't go down that pathway, I mean, OK. That's going to be tough. I mean, nice is what I was thinking. But you're right, freshest hits. So instead I'd say you know, something like a A a fragrance which is an acquired taste.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Fragrance doesn't quite taste OK.

CRAIG NORRIS

You know, or a, you know, something which requires some sophistication to understand the complexity of.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

It that's the interesting thing about Edge radio is like it. It's definitely not fresh, it's.

Speaker

That's what I'd say.

CRAIG NORRIS

Not fresh in terms of the freshest.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah, it's it's not fresh as well. Popularity sort of thing.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Top 20 hits.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

It's it's, but it's not niche either it's multi.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, I will. Yeah. And I would say it gets around to that idea of of an aspect of, of cultural capital, of, of familiarity with some heavy, deep dives into music. I mean, if you think about some of the shows we've got on edge, we've got the low sound which plays like heavy music, but. It's just like swamp. Some of the terms that I recall seeing linked to music. Yeah, you know. And so and then you've got the kind of Sonic salad.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Music.

Speaker 6

M.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Show.

CRAIG NORRIS

Which again, is that kind of audio noise scape material? So yeah, I mean it's not for everyone. And because of that, yeah, it's. A hole we've dug.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Ourselves. Yeah, and we're one of the only stations that actually plays, stuff like that. Really. Yes, because. When I was, as I used to be a parcel delivery officer, I used to be an officer parcel delivery officer.

CRAIG NORRIS

Used to have uniform.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah, I do. Actually. And U M1 of the radio stations that I listened to the most in the car was a radio station from Germany that played only ohh what's the genre called?

CRAIG NORRIS

German folk music? No, you kind of.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

K Pop it's it's sort of like a jazz style Electro Electro swing.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker

Sweet.

CRAIG NORRIS

OK. Yeah. Electro.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Swing and yeah, because it was. I listened to that one because it was the only radio station in the world that played 24. 7 Electro swing. Wow.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. Yeah. So equally here. While we don't have a 24/7 monotony of any particular sure. Nevertheless, yeah. You can kind of phase in and out.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Genre. And you know the most hazy music of anywhere in the world you can find here as.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, well, yeah. Look, you know, you never know what's going to hit. I did have that board. Naming episode of him banging on about forever because of the fact that somehow the metrics revealed that we had 200 plus Russian listeners. For that episode.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Well preview it.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, well, does Fredonia. So yeah, unusual. So here we are on Edge Radio 99.3 on media mothership let's let's now swing into the first song. But before I do that, I was thinking, yeah, let's, let's palette cleanse somewhat.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yep, 3IN white Tarzan.

CRAIG NORRIS

With a what I'm going to try out now as the new. Code shift you, yeah. Here you go.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

All right. It was good that you, like, almost muted it off like.

CRAIG NORRIS

A bit loud. Bit loud. Yeah. Yeah, well, actually. OK, I'll queue up the one that we usually play. I think this. Is the one we usually there we. Go alright. OK, so. Yeah, it does. First story French soccer star. Yeah, you can bring up the article on. Your. Screen. Yeah, French soccer, French soccer stars, French. French soccer star. I should do more. Of those vocal exercises before I talk.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

French Shocker style lists GTA as one reason he moved to LA Grand Theft Auto. Live might be better tourism than Rockstar ever imagined, says the article, written by Zach Zwiner Zen from kotaku.com. So this is an article talking about the famous and celebrated French footballer Hugo Lorez. You know Hugo.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

No, I don't know.

CRAIG NORRIS

Anything about football? He left Tottenham Hotspurs 11 years after 11 years playing there and he's now. Become a new member, new player for the Los Angeles Football Club. So.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Just on that, I think that's crazy that like football players can play for different teams, but then in different leagues play for different teams and just mess around everywhere because there's the umm ohh what's? I forgot her name but she's the most famous Australian.

Speaker 7

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Samka.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

I think so.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, it's currently in the news for legal.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. Oh, OK.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Well, I didn't know that, but yeah, she plays for Chelsea in the.

CRAIG NORRIS

That's right. Usually, yeah. But she's also an Australian national player.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

And then plays against the exactly in the international games. Yeah, that's great.

CRAIG NORRIS

Some of her ex team members or current team members? Absolutely. Look, it's Game of Thrones, man. It's we'll talk about later. Shogun Shogun. Shogun. It's, you know, high stakes politicking. I didn't mention.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

So yes, this is about soccer or football. So according to the former World Cup goalkeeper, so Hugo Lorez I guess was the former World Cup goalkeeper. You can thank Hollywood, doctor Dre and Rock Stars, open World Crime series, Grand Theft Auto, for convincing him to head out to California, the article says.

Speaker

MHM.

CRAIG NORRIS

It goes on to site. A source first reported in December 2023 that officially confirmed in February 2024, Lorez left his longtime club, the Hotspurs joined LA's successful Major League Soccer team. Yeah, with quite a bit of. Huh. So he was. Talking during this interview held at GAT Football News France and explaining that he might have retired at that stage, but when LA offered him a good deal to head to the US, he felt the flame and enthusiasm to quote him for the game. Returning quickly. It also didn't occur. According to him, that LA is a nice cool place. So again to quote him further, he goes here, I don't need to wear a scarf or a hat like I would have to at Disneyland Paris everything is more peaceful. I have maybe 10 people asking me for selfies throughout the day, especially Latinos. Those are the main football fans here, so I guess it's feeling a little bit more anonymous slightly, but there might have been another reason for his move. Grand Theft Auto, according to the soccer star, he's played a lot of the game, which I assume is or which the article assumed is GTA5 and listed it alongside other reasons. He wanted to live in LA. Yes. In terms of gives on to say in terms of population, it seems to get bigger with every move, but I think will stop here, he says. The film industry, Doctor Dre, GTA, I played this game so much in the PlayStation that I had the impression that I knew all the landmarks of the city without having been there. So. It's really interesting because I know, yeah, they say the GTA game franchise. Has has is heavily based on reflecting the. Yeah. So as a New York for GTA two, I think.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Real locations.

CRAIG NORRIS

San Andreas was. Anyway, and #5 is Los Angeles, and even though they change aspects of it so much like the car names, the.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Businesses. Yeah, businesses are.

CRAIG NORRIS

All changed. Some of the landmarks are are geographically in the same location, but changed. Nevertheless, yeah, it's clear that it's providing a type of soft power, right? The idea of the culture of a location being the thing that appeals most to you to make a decision like this, you're going to move overseas. You're a famous soccer player. You could retire, finally, relax. But then. This LA Soccer team offers you this spot and you think I loved playing GTA5, and through that game and like listening to Doctor Dre in Hollywood films. I want to have that experience of that fantasy that that fictional.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Is Doctor Dre part of LA or something?

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, it's well, you wanna ask? Techie BT on your computer. I assume so. I assume so. If he's, if he's listen to Doctor Dre as as a reference. But again, again, this is a classic media mothership moment. Of how media defines reality around us, how for some people, the and and again the the way this article is portraying it is this is a very rational thing to say that one of your interests in going to a location is because how it was portrayed in media, yes, or how it was portrayed in a video game, how he describes it in terms of knowing the landmarks of the city. So again, this idea that it's not. It's it's a location that has some comfort to him that has some understandability to him. Through playing a video game. It's still foreign. Other of course. What's interesting is then interviewing him and we'll see if we can reach out to his agents to see if we can now interview him to ask him how it stood up was.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

The real la like GTA. You know, obviously it'll be different but but was it so far different that he he's now taking legal action against Jerry Wooden? But yes. So I mean and later on in today's show, we'll talk about Shogun. If we get time, which is another series which many people cite in the 70s and 80s and potentially. Now, with the new series as one of the popular culture texts which most captured their attention about Japan. Any any connections you have with GCC?

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Well, I've played #5. That's the only one. I've played how do?

CRAIG NORRIS

You feel. How does this make you feel towards America or Los Angeles? Has it made it feel like a more interesting place to go to?

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

I'd like to go there. I'd like to. Like because you know where all of the. Petrol stations are. On the map and if you can go there, you can rob them and and you know all of the alleys that you can hide down South. The police stop looking for you.

Speaker

Ohh well yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

High 5. Well, I mean, yes, forgetting the second half of your of your. Fantasy, definitely. The first half. I mean, it is fun to go to a location that you've seen represented in a movie and then deciding to, like, take a photo of yourself with it, you know next to it.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Oh yeah. So for example, when I went to Wiltshire, I think it was in England. We went to this House and it was during a sort of tour thing. And they said look up at that house. Does it look familiar to any of you? And it was the House of that baby. Harry Potter was his mother was murdered in in the first movie. It was that house.

CRAIG NORRIS

Oh wow. Yes. Well, in here in local Hobart, I've been curious to track down traces of. The famous Hollywood Golden age. Actor. There is a park called the Errol Flynn Park, but it seems all the stories about Elder Flynn are disreputable. You know, they said that he was actually quite a mischievous boy. Nothing good to say about him, it seems. So it's a very kind of, yeah, ambiguous relationship. It seems her but has with Errol Flynn. There is, of course, the research project that I've done. Which I always look for an excuse to bring up. You can read my research article on the Ross Bakery and Delivery service, where I investigated. Why is it that a lot of Japanese and more broadly Asian tourists often come and visit this location which rumour had it was the inspiration for the.

Speaker

Jeez.

CRAIG NORRIS

Bakery in the fondly remembered Japanese 80s anime called Kiki's Delivery service. I've got a message right now coming in saying, you know, yeah. Right. Live research. Yeah. What I found so interesting, just a small the article. So you, I mean, do read it. But my conclusion was a, you know, sadly it is a rumour. Jubilee in fact denied.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

ResearchGate.

CRAIG NORRIS

There being a ever having visited the Rose Bakery and using it as. The as a template template for the actual group, but what's interesting is that if you read all the visitor logs, a lot of the people who were most attached to the similarity were strikingly similar to the main character in Kiki's delivery service, a young or in this case. Most most of the real people weren't witches, but in the film it's a young witch coming of age story which she leaves. Home and she has to prove her medal in a foreign location to become their towns witch. But it's it's, you know, she she travels from a a kind of Japan to a fictionalised Europe. Well, so in many ways you read these comments of of an international exchange students or working. These are students. These are work. Students who have a kind of similar coming of age narrative, right? So glad that they came there full of adversary and change. But you know, finding this sanctuary, this moment of safety, where in which they can make sense of their experience in Australia that just like Kiki.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

Late. Too had to overcome adversity, so let's only hope that football friend here performs GTA appropriately. Yeah. You know, hey, any other, I mean, I mean, look, the very studio that we're broadcasting out of here is a bit of media.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Reality in terms of the ABC comedy series rose have. In like season one, episode 5 was filmed in here for the Rose Haven Community radio station was filmed at Etch Right in this very location to where I'm sitting, the community radio DJ.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Oh really? I didn't know that.

CRAIG NORRIS

And they had cameras set up over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So in many ways, I'm always surprised that the.

Speaker 7

Wow.

CRAIG NORRIS

Advertising I've done to run a little tour here just to get more teachers to come and visit the location where the Rose Haven community stations and trying to get a plaque made for outside the studio saying here at this studio in 2003 November 7th, the following episode of Roseanne was filmed.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

I mean, that's the way to get them not to ever film here again.

CRAIG NORRIS

For me, what was interesting about that is it kind of in a way fed back into a reality that is that it kind of, you know, like they're radio studio is if if you're looking at a YouTube stream it's it's a very kind of bare bones studio. It's your classic you know. Simple community radio environment with three mics, a lot of DIY around it, a lot of really old computers, kind of teenager bedroom vibes, punk aesthetic, you know it's it's a bit ramshackle. Ram bolish ram. Ramish ramshackle but having.

Speaker

Cool.

CRAIG NORRIS

An episode of Rose Haven here. Kind of. Justifies this as actually a community radio station that was on their point of View, Edge radio is.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Is exactly what a community radio station should look like.

CRAIG NORRIS

Exactly. Yeah. All right. So that's Kotaku. And now moving on to next piece. Decades old beer ads stitched straight from original Star Wars movies goes viral, so this was a piece you'd come across it as well? Yeah, a this was for the Star Wars films. And it was an advertising campaign that in in Chile where? Chilean beer commercial was spliced into actual footage of Star Wars as if it was filmed running into it, so you'd have.

Speaker

Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

Of a scene where I'll play a little bit of one of them, but basically you'd have a scene background here first, so this is way back in 2003 in Chile. When they were screening the original Star Wars movies and they decided to do this, what one Twitter commented or refers to as funny thing to avoid cutting to commercial breaks and losing an audience, they instead stitch the commercials right into the film themselves. So they'd have someone like someone wearing a kind of Jedi cloak. Like the brown cloak and you just see, you know, in the scene will show. It's the scene where. Obi Wan Kenobi is going to give Luke Skywalker his lightsaber, and let's see if you can hear where they spliced in head.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Selected.

Speaker

Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

So it's good. OK audio. Ohh, hold on. That's right. This is not playing through that.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

So you gotta do. It on here? Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, queue it up. I'll. I'll queue up.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

OK. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

I'm gonna look. Hopefully I'll have to look into it, OK? Alright. And then.

Speaker 6

I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father.

Speaker

I wish I'd. Known.

Speaker 6

Him. He was the best star pilot in the Galaxy. And a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend. Which reminds me.

CRAIG NORRIS

So now he goes over to open up the footlocker? Yep.

Speaker 6

Are you?

CRAIG NORRIS

Him the.

Speaker 6

Your father wanted you to have this when you. Were old enough.

CRAIG NORRIS

So yeah, yeah, instead of revealing the lightsaber, it's it's an ice box with a beer in it. So.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah, but I think it's, I think it's genius how they say your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough. That's and it ends up being. Beer.

CRAIG NORRIS

And that's true. Yeah, because you're, you're now legally allowed to drink, and there you go. It is. And look, I mean, I guess that's what redeems it. That it's it's funny that it actually. Dovetails into the narrative in a way. It's conceivable because you know, everyone knows the story so well by now. It's actually quite amusing to see this kind of what if story play out? I imagine they cut then to the original scene, and suddenly the lightsaber appears and gives it to them because there's other scenes where you have there's another word.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

Alpine reaches out like it's at that scene where Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker confronting Palpatine about to reveal their betrayal, or Darth Vader is about to reveal the betrayal. And instead he reaches out and grabs the beer the emperor. Grabs the beer. There's.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

So. A.

CRAIG NORRIS

The other one is way Obi Wan Kenobi's in the in the first film, walking around to switch off the tractor beam I think, and instead he reaches out instead of reaching out to pull down the tractor beam. He reached out for. A cold beer to have. So it's it's quite funny. It's quite funny and clever, and I guess this is how they've gotten away with it. Of course it would be in breach of, I imagine, the requirements to air a TV show, right? I mean, I imagine this doesn't happen more often because typically, you know, Lucasfilm would take legal action.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Against advertising, actually. The interfering with the story right? Rewriting in a way the story.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

But at the same time, as it says, the Crystal Beers agency picked up an award for being able to convince the broadcasters to allow it to.

CRAIG NORRIS

Happen. Yeah. Because I guess they could convince. The local broadcast. For whatever reason, Lucasfilm never bothered, decided it wasn't worth the effort to investigate, and this was, I guess, back in 2003. So 20 years ago now. I can't imagine this happening in Australia apart from in a comedy show. Where they've set it up as.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Satire. Yeah, well, as it says, Lucasfilms lawyers said that it was a breach of the advertising ethics.

CRAIG NORRIS

All right.

Speaker

Yeah.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Because then people thought that there was an official association between the beer and the movie.

CRAIG NORRIS

That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, yeah. Any studio would want to wish to avoid that. All right. There you go. OK, next story.

Speaker

Is.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

You're putting this show in for an. Award, aren't you?

CRAIG NORRIS

It's award worthy. Arthur Morgan is your American history teacher in New Red Dead Redemption audio book. I'm kind of interested in this because I've loved the Red Dead Redemption. Theories and yeah, I did find it, gave me a passion to learn more about the era of the Western.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

What's Red Dead Redemption 2 about so in. Ohh is is that the one? That's that's done by rock stars. Ohh yeah, I've played that.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. So, well there, we.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Go, but only worked 10 minutes of it because. I didn't enjoy the gameplay. Oh, wow.

CRAIG NORRIS

It's considered. One of the best open world kind of games you can play. You didn't change the default settings, it is what it is. It is a challenging game, so in Red Dead Redemption, you're playing as a kind of gritty cowboy. What? In the America of the 1870s, through the 1920s and the Red Dead Redemption, Two series is set after that from 1911. And 1899, is that right? Yeah. Set in 1911 and.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Respectively, yeah. So yeah, the first one. Was set in 1911, yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Oh yeah, and the second one is a prequel 89.9. Sorry. Yeah, you're right. So it goes into all of those really fascinating kind of mythologies of the Western, but really well performed by the voice actors in the film. And what interests me is. Now, because it's been quite a while since Red Redemption Town it launched. The prequel was, yeah, 2018. So five years ago they've decided to set up an audio book about America's violent past during this period.

Speaker 6

Hmm.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

It felt like a historical sort of thing.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So again, great weights. Using a history professor. Tor Olsen, who's written this book that teaches the world's first Red Dead Redemption history class. Ohh well he does. So yeah, you know, and it's interesting to consider those entry points where a game creates that affinity to explore what many people would be highly impressed by knowledge of history. I do know that there's been cases I've read of like a family going overseas, Italy.

Speaker

Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

And then being so pleased that their son knows everything about this location because they've played Assassin's Creed, whatever, and they knew everything right, they could actually be the guy. For the art galleries and so forth, they were going through. Hmm. Because yeah, he played so much of this Assassin's Creed game.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah, here's where I vaulted over the rooftops and.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. So yeah. Yeah. Have you ever gotten into something through video gaming history? Profession. OK.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

I I can't think of anything.

CRAIG NORRIS

I do like you know, I was playing a lot of those like Formula One games Gran Turismo. Ohh yeah, and they'd have those lines like the perfect lines like you do it on the easy level and it shows you the lines to take the best take.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, sometimes I'm driving and I'll I'll visualise it or what's the best. Line to take this.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

You know, obviously still within the, but yeah, I did feel like that, that, that playing that game actually did have some assistance in terms of.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

The rule, yeah, yeah. How to drive a rally car?

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, looking at the. Road, I guess in in a in a more you know mindful way of you know don't take this too fast. Where to break, how to slow down appropriately to take that corner there. Hmm yeah. So yeah, yeah, even for for for driving a car.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

I can't think of any. Time when I've done anything like that.

CRAIG NORRIS

Alright, well think about it. If it comes up.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Freedom dropped. Yeah, sure.

CRAIG NORRIS

OK, last bit of news, I want to talk a little bit about the sugar series. Yep. So this is a series that is based on James Clavell's.

Speaker 7

This.

CRAIG NORRIS

Book series that was released in I think 1973 and became a huge. Bestseller. It's an enormously long tomb tomb. For for a. Book but well, I I find was was quite well well researched. And what I'm interested in looking into is the adaptations that have been made to this book. So it's set during the 1600s in Japan, when there was a lengthy civil war that had been going for, I think, by that stage 200 years.

Speaker

100.

CRAIG NORRIS

And. And they were now at a point very close to the conclusion of this as. 4 Regents were battling off against each other while sizing up each other to determine who would be the final military dictator. Yeah, to rule Japan. And so we're said in this moment of, you know, great political and military drama. And into it is throwing this. Western English born uh navigator. That's shipwrecked on the coast of. Qu and picks up his story as he attempts to navigate this treacherous New World. He's in. What I want to look at, though, is some of the interesting things which have come up in some of the interviews with the people involved in putting it together. But I'll play a little bit of a snippet of episode one where we have.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Doctor Dre.

CRAIG NORRIS

Dre. Blackthorne, the English navigator, recounting some some drama.

Speaker 7

That man was going to kill himself up on that Cliff. He risked his life to save you. Then he was done for in those ways he didn't fight. Could have tried, but he just turned and drew his blade.

Speaker 6

It shows his death would better and can a.

Speaker 7

Man hope for. Will I die here? Likely.

CRAIG NORRIS

So that's the dramatic moment where we have John Blackthorn talking with Rodriguez, another European navigator, about the kind. Of culture shock. He's experiencing with some of the behaviour of the samurai that he's witnessed there. Sacrificing themself and so forth. So yeah, one one of the questions that came to me was how each version of this Shogun. Franchise or Shogun? Theme. It was kind of reflecting different moments in which it was written. So if we think about the book, so the the book was first written way back in 1975 and that's the time in which the West is starting to become more interested in Japan. In this post, World War 2 era, so World War 2, of course, had finished up in 45. Dave, so this is 30 years after that. James Clavell, interestingly, was a POW during World War 2, so is Australian born. But British, British citizen and he was captured and put into Changi in Singapore. So he has this very lived first hand experience of dealing with. Japan as a wartime. Enemy. So it's interesting to see how that might have bled into his yeah portrayal. I mean, certainly John Blackthorne is imprisoned in the first section of the book when he's first found by the Japanese. So it's a really interesting moment in history 75.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Portrayal of it.

CRAIG NORRIS

As Japan's just starting to become an economic global superpower, so it's that moment where the West is recognising that this previous enemy and through, you know, a long history of racism kind of disparaged. Other country was starting to beat the West in many ways in in its in its economic power. So you know, the book is blending some of these historical facts of the history of Japan during that time with some fiction, you know, so we've got this character, John Blackthorn, while it's based on a real life.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

English navigator William. Nevertheless, it's taking a little liberties with some of the romantic relationships which are around the the main character, and it's very, you know, while there is balance in terms of you do get some Japanese point of views as well as Western point of views, there's, there's still a lot within it which would be considered kind of Orientalist or fetishizing. The the kind of other. When I read the book. Yeah, I was certainly left with the impression actually in many. Ways this appeal of Japan that is superior to the West. I mean, there's many moments where, you know points of the kind of cleanliness of the Western or the lack of cleanliness that you know, at that point, myths and misunderstandings of how germs were spreading had meant that many Westerners. Would not take baths that often at all, and they would always keep houses closed up and so there are quite length. The kind of self criticisms of how dirty the Western culture was and how it it failed really to help its citizens compared to, you know, obviously, you know, in this case the the John Blackburn character is being taken into a leading Gino's. Now so. So you were entering huge prosperity. It's not as if he's found himself with peasants, but nevertheless he has this experience of, you know, daily baths being cleaned.

Speaker

The.

CRAIG NORRIS

This kind of non meat eating culture that he fell in love with and many people recount this image of Japan that's conveyed in this book as part of beginning their fantasy of of a Japan they wanted. To travel to as a tourist. Or go and study about. Then we skip forward a few years to the 1980s. When the miniseries came out, which was again a huge success, it had Richard Edinburgh, who's an American actor but was a kind of daytime soapy leading actor. He appeared in a number of TV miniseries, so he's quite well known. But it was filmed in Japan. It had Toshiro Mifune, of course, from 7 samurai. Many Kurosawa films pretty much the leading Japanese man that had also. Yeah, a fan following, I guess in the West, if you had been watching Japanese samurai films. And at that point, it's interesting that. You know you have an American television production that's being filmed entirely in Japan and and maybe because of that, right. So the original book was written by one author. Back home in England, but here we have a film studio going to Japan to try and film to bring in a little bit more of Japan into the storytelling. Although you know, because the film was intended for an American audience predominantly. Nevertheless, the the point of view and a lot of the narrative shifts from. Your kind of Japanese ensemble cast to mainly the experience of your Westerner, William Adams, or sorry John Blackthorn. William Adams is the real life guy that John Blackthorns I'm not making.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

OK. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

So, but nevertheless interesting, right? So you've got moments in the 1980s miniseries where the Japanese actors are speaking Japanese and no subtitles, so there are no subtitles. That all used in this. It's not dubbed for the Japanese actors. They're speaking in Japanese. And the decision conscious decision was made to not subtitle any of the Japanese to.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Make it feel alien and foreign for.

CRAIG NORRIS

The viewer exactly. Yeah. So the viewer was equally kind of unsure of exactly what's being talked about unless it's translated. Diegetically you know, unless you have the translator character, then say OK turn lug is saying these things to you. So yeah, it's it's somewhat better, but it's so, you know, heavily Orientalist. And the problem many people point out with the mini series is is the very like the amount of time given over to the romance subplot, which pretty much consumes half the mini series.

Speaker

Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

Kills to many people rather than all the political intrigue, Game of Thrones stuff.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah, so exactly like The Hobbit.

CRAIG NORRIS

Is there? I guess there is that kind of. Yeah, there's that kind of because they add a new character into The Hobbit. This is the Peter Jackson film series. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Many people say, yeah, it's not Canon, but I think that's always the wonder of adaptation. And it does bring, sorry if I I'm just going to do you want to.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Say anything at that point.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

No, no, no.

CRAIG NORRIS

Alright, so now bring us up to 2024 FX series because this one is the again a a hard revision. Well, it's quite a strong different take on the 75 novel, so this adaptation.

Speaker

That's fine.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

OK. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

And really does focus much more primarily on the Japanese points of view which are occurring here. So I want to skip forward a little bit to we'll hear a little bit of a discussion of that with some of the people involved in the production, so. Let's listen now to their points. About doing different types of Japanese centred adaptations. And place.

Speaker 5

Time.

Speaker 8

Yeah, this book has had such a. Poll for so long and I think a lot of people maybe even know it from their parents. Having read the book. But what would you say is the thing that is like the draw that beyond just being this like really fascinating, detailed historical fiction? What's the juice there for?

Speaker 7

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5

What I remember most about, you know what we talked about in the writers room when we were building this show was it felt like we couldn't just do a story that sort of dealt with some of the tropes that you would associate with stranger in a strange land where here I come into this place and look, they have paper walls and they eat raw fish and imagine all these amazing things. We had to find a different reason for being what really excited me was to say, well, it is a story about globalisation. It's a story. About cultures meeting each other, and of course in a time when it hadn't happened much, but we're going to interpret it through the lens of the globalisation that we have today. And So what are the issues that become important to us as a civilization? And I think those issues are really interesting when it comes to matters of empathy matters of agency, who gets to speak for whom, who gets to speak for themselves. What expectations we have as outsiders coming into a new world and what expectations we have as insiders when an outsider shows up into our culture.

Speaker 8

Yeah, you're talking about what it feels like for this culture to be seeing these foreigners. I mean, granted, that we, as we understand, they're not the first Europeans to be there, but they are a new kind of European. They're speaking a different language. When we hear English on the show in.

CRAIG NORRIS

I was supposed to.

Speaker

So.

CRAIG NORRIS

If you yeah. Yeah, there. What we can see that's really interesting is that the, again, this adaptation is trying to update this material to concerns for today. You know, how you be authentic to our culture and not appropriate.

Speaker

Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

Or try and say what their experience is to instead give them the voice to express how. They feel so. They're very much recentered the story away from John Blackthorn's character to also reflect more strongly the Lord Toby Nuga character, who has they've they've shifted some of the sequence of events so that you have Lord Toranaga kind of doing some of the political intrigue. Earlier in the setting than in the original book or certainly the 80s mini series as well as the Michael the the Japanese translator character who's given quite a lot of. Focus. So yeah, it's quite interesting when you have those kind of efforts to shift the direction, we'll play one more sequence, which is about the translation, how they had the choice of what to translate. And how to demonstrate that translation? Yeah.

Speaker 5

So really, there's almost no opportunity for him to speak actual English in the story, but in, you know, in our case, we had to make some.

CRAIG NORRIS

So sorry, they're they're talking about how you know at that point in history. While John Backbone is English, there was no contact in Japan with English speaking countries, right? It was Portugal, Spain and Dutch. So if you're going to be speaking another language apart from Japanese at that point in time, the 1600s or early 1600s, you would be speaking Portuguese, Spanish.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Good.

CRAIG NORRIS

No. You'd be speaking well in this case, Dutch is there because the rest of his crew are Dutch. But yeah, if you're in Japan, most other Japanese would be able to speak Spanish, maybe Portuguese, maybe, and maybe a small percentage. Latin, if they're being trained through Christianity and not Dutch.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Ah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Not Dutch yet, but don't like them to speak Dutch. And they're saying that. And the point here is that there are two languages. There's English and Japanese, which is spoken in the series. But however you have. To understand that when John Blackman speaking English, the other characters are actually speaking Spanish, Portuguese or Dutch.

Speaker 5

Exceptions to that.

Speaker 8

Majority of the show's dialogue is in Japanese, but our writers room was entirely English speaking writing scripts in English. One might assume that this was just a matter of translating those scripts from English to Japanese, but there was actually a lot more to it than that, right?

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 8

Just tell me a little bit about the translation process here.

Speaker 5

So we went through this very detailed process to say if we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it right where we would, of course all. Of. Us wrote it in English, right? Worked with a producer on the show who I would call, kind of the voice in my ear from a cultural point of view, just to sort of make certain adjustments, as in someone wouldn't have said that kind of thing or bend that direct with that kind of idea. So then we made some adjustments. Accordingly, then we would send it to a team of translators in Tokyo who would kind of translate it into a modern Japanese of sorts, and they would hand that to a Japanese playwright who specialised in jidaigeki. And, you know, period. Japanese, who spoke no English and would rewrite that dialogue into a more polished prose, and then that would, you know, be performed. And when we did the subtitles, we translated back not from the script, but from the Japanese. We translated it again into English. And so the subtitles that you're reading on screen have gone through about 9 steps. To get to where they are and we're really proud of the attention to that detail because.

CRAIG NORRIS

That that's pretty ******** in terms of arriving at subtitles, which they're happy with.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

That's impress.

CRAIG NORRIS

And this would be subtitling the Japanese.

Speaker

This.

CRAIG NORRIS

Characters, so they'd have the script in English. Then obviously it would be translating to Japanese. It would be performed.

Speaker

Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

And then to ensure that the English translation of the Japanese words is well, it would then go through a translation not of the original script, wouldn't just be put there, it would be OK. So what did the actor say? How did they deliver it? How do we then translate this to reflect that performance rather than what was on the script to begin with?

Speaker

Yeah.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

I think it's clever that they use the fellow that doesn't speak any English. In order to do the Japanese translation. The the Old World Japanese translation, because then it's like. He's not going to inject any sort of thing that's an English person would be trying to input.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yes. Into that. Yeah, it's a difficult question in terms of how you control that input, I mean, in this case they I think because they had that theme of we want people from that country to speak for themselves. While they did have a writers room of all English speakers, nevertheless there were enough steps along the way that you could have a native speaker saying. Actually, I prefer this expression and they give an example. I'll play an example of where that happened. So in episode 2, I'll play the start of episode 2 to give you a sense of what episode 2's about.

Speaker 9

You'll be my son. I alone will tell you the truth, daughter. Now, you claimed you as an ally. You'll never leave Japan a life.

CRAIG NORRIS

So there we have a moment where the main character is. In gaol, and he's talking about whether or not he'll be able to get out of there, but he wanted to please a small clip of the translation team talking about where that moment of the Japanese translator actually made. The script better.

Speaker

OK.

Speaker 8

Sort of into a period language for the actors to read, and this is obviously a very complicated. Process and the dialogue could go through some real changes by the time it was spoken by the actors. So were there any cases you remember where the translation actually really changed what was said on the? Show.

Speaker 10

Well, one instance that comes to mind is at the end of episode. One, when Toranaga is discussing with America what is about to happen, he has come across this barbarian ship and he'd like her to translate for him and they get to this point in the conversation where he says to her, I need to know, is this going to conflict with your faith?

Speaker 8

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 10

To be, you know, basically translating for. Heretic and she says to him. And the what was in the script was, she says, to Tanaga. It would be a problem if I was only one thing and how that came. It went to the Japanese and how that was performed by the great Anna Sawai was that it came back. I have more than one heart.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Hmm.

Speaker 10

And I thought that that was a beautiful, much more spiritually accurate way to put it. And so we stuck with it. We're talking about episode 2 this week and.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. So I have two hearts rather than so. Yeah. Yeah. So again, yeah, that that idea of their adaptation is focusing more on a authenticity of japaneseness. You haven't got a chance to. See it yet? No, I haven't, but.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

I really want to now great. Hopefully it will come out on something that isn't Disney plus or cost as much as. Disney plus.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, well, you can get the one month for free. So wait until the whole series is out. We're only up to episode 3. There's ten episodes in total, so one a week. So you got another seven weeks before you get your free. But yeah, at the moment it's on Disney, but it's really worth watching. And and if you're a fan of the.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Every. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Book or the 80s Richard Chamberlain miniseries going into it, knowing that this is a very different approach to it. It's actually trying to recenter the narrative away from a Western centrism, which is still there. I mean, you still have the main character of John Blackthorn, and he's playing very, very well in this series, but also recognise that there's a lot more. Of the Japanese court intrigue and focusing on the Japanese characters.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

This is the, say, the majority of the programme is in Japanese didn't.

CRAIG NORRIS

They. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because they're in Japan. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see globally how that's received in Japan as well. So that's the show for this. Week on Media mothership, thanks so much for listening. This has been doctor Craig joined by.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

You just pointed upwards. God, you're joined by God. No, you're joined by Lord Taylor.

CRAIG NORRIS

Show notes are available on the episode description via YouTube, Twitch, or the podcast provider of Your Choice. I haven't actually fixed the YouTube for the last four weeks. It's been just out of. Sync. So I'll get around to that next week. We're taking a break, so we'll play if we can. Get around to it. A repeat. Not listen back in for fortnight's time for all your latest news and information about media shaping our minds. You can listen to previous episodes on YouTube, Twitch, or at edgeradio.org Dot AU or your podcast provider of choice. Find out more about media mothership on Facebook and Instagram. Keep listening now to its radio because coming up next, we've got KPOP and littered with DJ and DJ CJ. I have DJ here now. Who's coming to the studio? Hello. Hello everyone. Hello Gov. What's on today's show? Music. Great. I'm really looking forward to that. Donk, Bass, Donk, Base, Donk, base so do do a quick Wikipedia search for Donk base. That's spelled DONK base. BASE BSS really your base your base belongs to us. I thought it was like.

Speaker 9

Yep.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Bass guitar, you know, you know.

CRAIG NORRIS

A base don't base BAS the fish. Yeah, so that's keep up with gonna be coming up next. Thanks very much for listening.

TAYLOR LIDSTONE

Yes.

 

 

 

 



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