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Semiotics

Writer's picture: Craig NorrisCraig Norris
Episode 95 - With host Craig Norris, PhD research student Ashley Remminga, and Kentaro.
First Broadcast on Edge Radio, 10 January 2025.

We discuss Ashley Remminga's "Popular Culture & Theory" podcast and the concept of semiotics and how it can be applied to understand the world around us. Plus, we tackle the weirdest movie moment of 2024 from "Kraven the Hunter."


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TRANSCRIPT

This is an AI-generated audio transcript, and it may contain errors. We may update or correct this transcript in the future. Please get in touch with us if you have any questions about the information in this transcript. The audio is the official record of this episode.


CRAIG NORRIS

Alright, welcome to episode 95 of media mothership out of Edge Radio Studios in Nepal. Luna Hobart TAS on this show, we explore how media shapes our understanding of the world around us. And I reckon, I reckon we asked streaming on YouTube and Twitch, which you can find by searching media mother ship or you can listen to us on the Internet at edgeradio.org dot au or via your FM system on 99.3 FM. If you're in the Hobart metropolitan area, as you listening through free to send us a message on the YouTube or Twitch chat. I think we're, I think we're definitely on Twitch. I'm not sure if we're. On YouTube, cause I do see. A little twitch symbol in the the chat sign there. Uh, so probably message us on Twitch or Sinner. Send SMS on our mobile phone number 0488811707 Altra to keep an eye on the message screen. I'm your host, Craig. Age. UX academic, joined by Karen Academic Ashley, PhD student. Hey, ash.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Hello.

CRAIG NORRIS

I tried both names out there. They felt good.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, I'm glad they came across well noticably.

CRAIG NORRIS

Semi. They worked. I said the name you responded to the name. I cheat.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, I'm like a dog. It's like the Pavlov like Shaker Bell.

CRAIG NORRIS

And I I'm foreshadowing a bit because we are going to be diving deep into one of the core academic theories. Semiotics. And to achieve this potential, we've brought in a return guest the second year computing studies students Kentaro.

KENTARO

Hello everyone.

CRAIG NORRIS

Excellent. Well, we're all here. I feel like I should say mission accomplished already.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yep, we're done. Time to go home.

CRAIG NORRIS

I'm I'm hoping we're going to peak too early.

KENTARO

Thank you, Ron, no.

CRAIG NORRIS

So today's topic is going to be diving into the world of semiotics, and the reason we're doing this is that we had a wonderful or Ashley's created a wonderful series of podcasts.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Debatable.

CRAIG NORRIS

Titled What's the What's the title of the functions?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Gosh, popular culture and theory.

CRAIG NORRIS

The end it's.

Speaker

That's the.

CRAIG NORRIS

I think culture theory Zinger did. You did you have any alternatives to that name? Did you go like you know? I I think big with Ashley.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

No, no. It was always going to be like popular culture and then some way of putting feary philosophy. I wasn't sure I I tried different versions and that one seemed to be the one that didn't sound the worst or driest.

CRAIG NORRIS

So it could be. A pretty solid first year unit popular culture in theory.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I right, I think that's how I base everything offers.

CRAIG NORRIS

Let me get some efforts.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I just think like academic, how do I word this title in the drier sounding way?

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some weird code bfj 102 colon poppy collagen.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Terry Okay I'm trademark thing this for a future subjects.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. So we should. Yeah, we'll post up a couple of syllabuses later on to media manager. So you for this have been collaborating with us at Edge. Yep, to create 5 little proof of concepts. Podcasts.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

And today's so you've launched them already, they live in the wilderness on the Internet. Yep, right. People can get them via. Most podcast platforms, iTunes.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Pretty much I I thought it was everywhere, but like those sort of Amazon owned ones, but it turns out that it's on there too, apparently so okay. And it seems to be everywhere. So wherever you get your podcasts and.

Speaker

Cool.

CRAIG NORRIS

This will be. Their first broadcast, I think on Edge though.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

If yes, ohh yes I I think this is the the biggest audience that's ever had and probably ever will have.

CRAIG NORRIS

So that's pretty well exclusive. So we'll keep an eye on the chat. Um, yeah. I always think I should actually try and, you know, garner a bit of a publicity before we start, particularly when I've got great guests on like yourselves.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh stop Facebook. Wait.

CRAIG NORRIS

The two of you. Well, at least you could grab your parents or your brother or your family to listen. Anyway, we'll think about that when we launch this episode as a podcast leader, which we will be doing so. We're gonna play episode 0, alright? So the which kind of breaks down the purpose of the podcast you were setting up as an academic.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

So this is this is kind of academic podcast.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. Yeah. So for sort of like, I guess high school to first, second year sort of academic level.

CRAIG NORRIS

So if there's anyone from during high school listening and they think, wow, this sounds great, follow up with Ashley to get them into your English class. To do a guest talk.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes. Yes, I'll. I'll happily come in and and do a guest lecture.

CRAIG NORRIS

Where can people get you?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh, they can find me on blue Sky, which is the the Twitch clone which is better.

CRAIG NORRIS

What is the?

Speaker

Who's that?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh sorry, not Twitch Twitter clone which is better.

CRAIG NORRIS

It's actually rominger.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Otherwise, yeah, actually Rominger blue sky. Otherwise just email me, I checked my emails.

CRAIG NORRIS

Like you, Taz, Ashley or bingo.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. Just say, Ashley, our main guy at UTAS.

CRAIG NORRIS

Because in your. You know, in your old, older identity, the PhD identity, you're doing ******** investigative research into into cosplay into trans identity and cosplay.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Gender flipping.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

And and my cosplay, all that sort of stuff.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. It's just occurred to me one quick update we should do while we're still in the getting to know you. Section of the show.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, you dropped a huge thought bomb on us like two months ago when you're on the show revealing to us that you'd been given the. The title of or you you joined the classification board of Australia yet to begin your journey classifying content.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Buying. I I have the OK proved accreditation. I haven't got any sort of. I haven't done anything.

CRAIG NORRIS

And that are you not classified anything at?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

It's it's all for under. No, I'm not. I'm not looking to classify. I wanted to get that sort of the more background to understand all the legal stuff for a journal I'm writing. That I am qualified to do it and I don't know if at that time I was qualified for games as well.

CRAIG NORRIS

Brian message.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I am qualified for games now.

CRAIG NORRIS

You gotta.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, so far you've not started that classification journey hands on yet.

Speaker

Yeah.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

No hands on, no looking at films or anything.

CRAIG NORRIS

And I had never.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

And.

CRAIG NORRIS

That well, we'll we'll always. Be looking for an update. But that does. That is a good statement of Expertise, Ness. So not only we're bringing you in as a academic. But also as a qualified classification officer, yes.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So I can say that this here coming up should be around the PG mark. Then I I don't think we'll be going into the emigrating and I don't think it's necessarily general audience from the best of my memory. So probably PG rating because language.

Speaker

Which?

CRAIG NORRIS

Conceivably, language would be the thing that could get us into trouble. Like pleased us up to an M rating if we.

Speaker

Possibly.

CRAIG NORRIS

Ohh or even that I mean you have to go really blue yet.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, sorry.

CRAIG NORRIS

Imagine these days cause I know this Triple J even has a little bit of swears in their songs playing midday.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So yeah, there's probably references to violence in some of mine, so for some of the examples.

CRAIG NORRIS

It seems community standards are little Easter. So what would get us over to an emo reading? Do you think is a revolution?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

To an M rating.

CRAIG NORRIS

Like if we. We obviously there's a legal things, but I don't think that's.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Certainly, if we're talking do do we wanna to push it to the M rating now?

CRAIG NORRIS

Or ohh no no no. Let's just know what.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

The criteria is sort of. I would say without.

CRAIG NORRIS

We know performing.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

It probably going into a bit of detail about stuff like sexual violence and things like that. Any sort of extreme mental harm could possibly distressing stuff.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So any explanations?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, I won't go in any any further than that because we will be pushing into it. Sorry.

Speaker

Too.

CRAIG NORRIS

It's true. Yeah, cause once you even start the explanation process, you can find yourself. Performing or committing that that that act.

Speaker

Yeah.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes. So even just referencing it can bring it into it.

CRAIG NORRIS

So yeah, I I came across an academic that was saying the same was Mark McClelland, one of his papers who's A was a well known Australian academic, did a lot of research in the area.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Amazing academic. Year I've been reading all these works, so yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

And he was telling me about the while he was doing a paper on part of these research around Lulita and so forth and Australian legislate. Question. And he was explaining he can't in the as he was talking, he was saying he has to be careful because he can't explain things that could be construed as the steps to access this material, that anything that would be conceived as providing information as to how to access this material is also in breach.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, of the criteria. So even if you're not a doing anything that's sexually. Or or or. Or legally offence. Have nevertheless explaining how to access that or where you procured it. Which of course is an issue when you're talking. About the methodology you used for.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Your research and. That. That's part of why I'm I got that accreditation in the 1st place was just because I was writing a journal to basically continue that work, because I found similar sort of boundaries with my own research.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right said, huh?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

What I could and couldn't say, so I wanted to critique that. So that's an aside.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, very better. We've already going very meta and I would love to do a whole show on. How we cannot do? Emma rated things while talking about overrated things.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh that'd be that would be fun and challenging.

CRAIG NORRIS

Alright, so to bring it back to the podcast cause I do want to play this intro, so this is one minute 32 introduction to popular culture and theory. What was going? What? What is this about? What? Any points that people should know before they hear this?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So just the introduction just basically are welcome to my. It's one of those things where you click on YouTube and it plays like welcome to my channel. Yes, but yeah, it's just a bit of an overview about who I am. What I hope to achieve in the podcasts and. Positive vibes like like in subscribe.

CRAIG NORRIS

Hmm. Well, we'll see how far we get through it, because I guess you've gotta capture people's attention, yes. So we'll we'll because yeah, as you're saying, it's one of these kind of standard little things that will come across when we going to new YouTube page and it's a little intro to let us know this is what this piece is about. So we'll play it in here. Hopefully it will play.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Welcome to popular culture and theory.

CRAIG NORRIS

There we go.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Joining you from the unseeded lands of the Palawa people in what we. Now call Hobart. I'm your host, Ashley Rominger, using chho pronouns, a PhD candidate at the University of Tasmania, I'm situated within the School of Languages and Culture with a background in gender studies and media studies. My specific area of expertise is on gender diversity within Japanese popular culture.

CRAIG NORRIS

It's just it's so gender diversity in Japanese popular culture and you've done research in Swinburne or which university from Melbourne.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Pardon. Ohh, Latrobe university, yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

In your tribe. Um and people of the want to know more, can listen to previous episode of. Media mother ship before?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes, I've been on a few.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. Yeah, for that. OK. So pushing forward.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So you may be wondering what is the point of this podcast?

Speaker

Thank.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

What I've observed from students I've taught is that many of the key theories terms and scholars discussed in humanities and social sciences are often not fully understood, partially because the anecdotes they use are dry along with the text they use. Being very dry and wordy, and it can be significantly outdated within our modern conf. Thanks, which ultimately means that the content is inaccessible to many given so many of us consume popular culture, hence the name, popular culture and given I am already applying many of these sociological concepts to my own research, I thought it would be good to create this podcast as a means to assist others in breaking down these complex theories in ways that are a bit more accessible to the average person. So hopefully you'll enjoy this pod. Us. And if you do, please share it around and hopefully you'll learn something.

Speaker

Night.

CRAIG NORRIS

Nice, good call to action at the end. You know, share it around. I think all of us that have that issue of how to make content relatable can total you're a third year student, incoming third year, you're going to be minted into the third year.

KENTARO

Fine and incoming going into third year year.

CRAIG NORRIS

Space, surely? Have you ever. Done. Any humanities or social science units yet?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Chat. Ohh.

CRAIG NORRIS

Kind of.

Speaker

And.

KENTARO

So far I don't think I have. I think they've mostly been within the ICT space.

CRAIG NORRIS

But you've certainly probably had lectures where the examples that they've used haven't quite made sense. Well, they've been really old.

KENTARO

Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

Like, do you recall any like, do, do they talk about Tron when they're explaining computing?

KENTARO

Tron. Ohh.

CRAIG NORRIS

Sorry, I'm trying to think of a really dated early 80s film that had computing in it.

KENTARO

Ohh OK ohh. No, I know. I don't think they did.

CRAIG NORRIS

Any other references? Other references owed the references new offence are is a very broad question.

KENTARO

They think. As for non technical references, because if they're technical, then by nature they'll some of them will be old, but you have to understand them anyway.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Um.

Speaker

Hmm.

KENTARO

I think that even because I think take for example computer games, even though no, there is a history behind computer games, it's only bear only going one or two human generations back really relatively speaking. Or maybe 3 at most? And so that's still sort. Inside, I know I'm not. I'm not. I'm going off track, but it's still sort of inside our collective memory, so we still sort of understanding we know what Pacman is, even though we may have never played it at the arcade. That's it.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And well, I guess I guess you're looking for entry points.

KENTARO

Yeah, very.

CRAIG NORRIS

Much into trying to then get into the more complicated explanations, but it can be different, particularly when you got international students like a really diverse cohort of students in a class. How you can find that common ground?

KENTARO

Yeah. Yeah, especially.

CRAIG NORRIS

Around to then start building towards you know, his the assessment that's coming up. Has the knowledge you guys need to know how do we make sense of that? It is quite a challenge. So how have you found it, Ashley?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I mean, listening to that, I hate it so much, but just that that entire thing because.

Speaker

Ohh well. Sounds good.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Is it goes against everything I set out to do in that podcast, which is to make it accessible. I I don't know why I made it so like the jargon of this language is completely no, I should have just said it. It needs to be easier to understand, like that's what I wanted to unpack was to make the language also more easy to be understood.

CRAIG NORRIS

Maybe.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

But in doing that, I worried I was getting too simplistic to appoint. Where since it was going out to all these other academics, I was scared they were going to be like, are you actually smart or are you just like faking it to?

CRAIG NORRIS

Your make now the impostor syndrome is an issue, but I do think you know, I mean if.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

We're looking for. What the core thing is this needs to do, which explains why it exists. I feel like you provide a very rational reason for it, which is these can be quite complicated. Events and a lot of it's kind of lost in translation because of poorly chosen examples that are.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

See, that's how I should have described it, but I didn't describe it like that. I I I took five sentences to say that.

CRAIG NORRIS

Alright, well, let's, let's. Let's put it into action then.

Speaker

Ohh.

CRAIG NORRIS

Um, so we'll go. We'll jump into episode 1 because we were talking about this a bit and we've got some. Examples to follow up with. We'll we'll just start the setup for it and then the example you give, which I think is really well chosen 1. So here we get episode 1, semiotic sign, signifier and signified.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Welcome to popular culture and theory. Joining you from the unseeded lands of the Palawa people in what we now call Hobart. I'm your host, Ashley Rominger, one of the most important concepts to understand for this podcast is semiotics. So over the course of this and the following few podcasts, we will unpack a number of key terms that are essential to understand in relation to semiotics, social science. Is and this podcast? But to begin with, what is semiotics? Put simply, semiotics is the study of signs. Although the origin of semiotics is somewhat disputed and debated, it is generally accepted that Swiss philosopher Ferdinand Garcia had one of the most profound influences over the field of semiotics. So that's good and all, but it doesn't mean much if we don't understand what signs are. So what are sign? Signs are the basic unit of communication. This is very vague and I've deliberately left it this vague as there is some misunderstanding surrounding what a sign is and what it isn't. But let's just. Pause for a moment and apply what we understand about signs to something a bit more familiar, a bit more accessible Pokemon cards. Let's take an Evie Pokemon card. So.

CRAIG NORRIS

Which characters? Evie. Again, that's the ones.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

HP is. Sorry, I'm just I've got a puppy who looks just like it. Who called Evie as well? So I've got this mental image in my head. Evie's this little fluffy ball of brown balls like.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Not a ball, but a fluffy like dog creature.

CRAIG NORRIS

And what we're talking about, what the examples you're moving into here is the the card game version.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes, I did.

CRAIG NORRIS

I mean, they're all the same, I guess in terms of, but the semiotics of it is the car.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes, so um, this is all using uh cards because. Cod Pokemon cards are somewhat popular at the moment and so I thought this is one of the more well known characters. It's somewhat easy to understand and of the symbols. That's a bit easier to understand than some of the others. Cause.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. On a compliment card, you know, so pocket the the card game. It's a battle game. It's competitive game. You're building your deck and and on those cards, much like a playing deck. I guess with a nine of hearts. King of Hearts and so forth, there's there's images on it, as well as some text. In the case of Pokemon and those do all the heavy lifting to explain the kind of score, the kind of strengths? How do you use this card? Yeah, when you're performing it. So here we're going to break it down a little bit further with filling out the example further. So we'll get back to it.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Look at the face of the Pokemon card in the top right hand corner of this card there is a star like symbol, so let's just take that general thing and call it our sign for the purpose of this discussion. Now here's a question for you. What part of that star makes it a sign?

CRAIG NORRIS

So as I'm okay yeah. So the Starlight symbol.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

So I've got the Pokemon card and there's a star symbol in the top right hand corner, yeah. And the question you're you're kind of hypothetically asking here is what part of that star? Yep, makes it a sign. Yeah. Alright, SMS in now.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. Yeah, you've got a couple seconds.

CRAIG NORRIS

To tell us what it is, I should have something. Maybe I do. Have some thinking music to quickly put up here.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, but what we give some time to think. I will comment that I really hated hearing me say Ferdinanda sitio.

Speaker

Yes, Sir.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

It's just I I tried to pronounce it correctly and his name is so difficult to pronounce.

Speaker

Ohh you know.

CRAIG NORRIS

You got a name check. It's really good to name check. You know it's choose. Choose the sources you using to build upon to make your argument, and people can go back to the source. It's always tricky with French names.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

It is so difficult does this year.

CRAIG NORRIS

Ferdinand discussed this with her.

Speaker

It's just, yeah, yeah.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I would like it sincere, but it's how you pronounce and I hear other people say it like, just like rolls off their tongue. I'm like, how do you do this?

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, I'm really hoping to get around to an example of mispronunciation. I did one myself cooking recently. Where I was speaking. Hamburgers and I was using Worcestershire sauce.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

And the way I was saying Worcestershire sauce made me feel I was mispronouncing it and I had to keep saying it's like what's ***** *****? I think I'm saying it OK now, but even when I say it now, I'm feeling like I'm missing emphasising the certain syllable. Moisturiser, moisturiser and the more you over think it the more dangerous it becomes so the sign of the star and the top right hand. On it we have a post from 43 hours ago, though I don't think that's the one for us seeing Africa.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

It is not Africa.

CRAIG NORRIS

It's not Africa on the star. So sign right. So what part of? So I'm assuming it's the star itself, like the the way it's drawn.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I realised my question is probably a really awful because. I I'm thinking more the composts that.

CRAIG NORRIS

Cause you're signifier, signified, signifier the physical themes.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

There we go. Yeah, you stop spoiling my podcast.

CRAIG NORRIS

Let's jump into the port.

Speaker

Consulate. Yes, but you're right.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Fit your ride mentioned. A sign is a basic unit of communication, so according to sishir, signs are comprised of two parts, a signifier and signified. So this is where we sometimes get confused by what? A sign is so the signifier. Is the physical component. This could be words or sounds. So many people will look at that corner image and think that is the sign because it is physical, but that's not the case and we will unpack this further. The signified, which is the second term, is the meaning component of the sign, so it could be the completed image or the general concept.

CRAIG NORRIS

So the star isn't the sign, but is the star the signifier?

Speaker

It's.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So the the star is. We're we're going to call the star the sign and within it the the image part of it is the signifier.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yep, so the drawn little 5 pointed star. If it's five points, it or whatever it is, that image that we see you see.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

That that, that will be the signifier and the signified is the meaning that will take from that.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. Yes. And and and it seems pretty obvious. In a way, it's like why they explain this is where I was, but then through some of the examples, we'll get around to.

Speaker

What?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

And so, yeah, you you need to understand that it's not just the star, because if it hasn't got a meaning attached to it, then it's not a sign, it's it's just an image. It's like an icon, but not eat it.

CRAIG NORRIS

And potentially no, and potentially people could argue about what it is.

Speaker

Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

It's like, you know, you're trying to explain someone how to play the game and you say you know, well, count the number of stars on your card and you're saying I don't see any stars. This and and that could be a breakdown of that sign process.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. I I'm not saying this is necessarily always like you. You can RIP into what other people have said in this field of signs and semiotics, and I've deliberately left out processes of signification here and it gets messy.

CRAIG NORRIS

Maybe dancing was.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

But yeah, keep it.

CRAIG NORRIS

So we'll try to keep it simple.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Simple.

CRAIG NORRIS

Alright, we'll push on. So we're two minutes 45. We'll push on a little further to hear the unpacking of.

Speaker

This.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

That comes from this particular signifier, so let's go back to that Pokemon card. The star symbol itself is the signifier. It's the visual component of the sign whether that is the coloured circle, the star in it, that is the signifier. Now the meaning of this particular sign is that the symbol represents this sense of being a normal type. Ohh come on. So we can say that this here is the signified. We can associate that the signified is the meaning that we get from this particular symbol.

CRAIG NORRIS

So normal Pokemon.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, basically the attribute of, yes. They can draw from again.

Speaker

Okay.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I overcomplicated it.

CRAIG NORRIS

No, I.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

So let's let's try and hold onto an idea. So here we're talking about um, moments where and which there's there's there's a sign and people are explaining. Well, I guess, OK, so let's see this in action as you've done with. The Pokemon card. So I've tried to think of some examples and I'd love the discussion around whether these are good or bad exam. Choose from this in terms of moments where where there's there's a a signified now signifier, right? So there's a discussion around a sign, and here we see the moment where the person saying, uh, this signifier means these things, so the signifier signified that they're linking to the signifier are important.

Speaker

For it.

CRAIG NORRIS

So the first example I want to play before, I believe what I'm talking about is an interview with Eric Idol talking about. Monty Python and the question is about why Monty Python, still popular after 50 years, so he explains it here. I I think in a quite interest way. So we'll listen to this and talk a little bit about in particular, why he's saying it matters whether something's black and white or colour. Right. So I'm thinking they're the two concepts are maybe it's more than signs, but anyway we'll listen to what he says. Eventually it's loading.

Speaker 5

Was very close to the comedian and they and vice versa. And because I was able to play guitar, I was able to hang out with a lot of them play, you know, and that that's.

CRAIG NORRIS

OI was talking these algebraic period. Now see you the questions come.

Speaker 5

Kind of a nice thing to do.

Speaker 6

The longevity of that work too. So I've I've watched Monty Python with my two teenagers and they've laughed. Sometimes we're laughing at different things, Eric, but that comedy, it's still works.

Speaker 5

I know it's it's. It's is intriguing and it it's also not supposed to be. I mean, you know, the holy grass, 50 years old next year. I mean, I don't remember this watching 50 or I suppose we watched some 50 year old comedy, something we watched Harold Lloyd and and and you know, uh.

Speaker

You know that probably.

Speaker 5

Should Laurel and Hardy and things like that, but they seemed in a different era cause they were in black and white. And I think one of our. Luckiest things was. That when we first did the TV show. Ohh, we were only three months from being in black and white. Colour was new and we were in colour so we were both digital, which is great cause it can survive and we were in colour and and those are the only two reasons I can explain why the longevity of it is because we're still in the digital era.

Speaker 6

It's that's interesting.

CRAIG NORRIS

So she interesting point. So that's from great chats with friend Chesca Rudkin to not be pronounced and it's any of you with Eric Idol recently from December 30th, 2024. Really interesting point about. I guess it's bigger point about texts which I know you get around to on. One of you later episodes next.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes, I make sure you check that. Out.

CRAIG NORRIS

So not to spoil any of that, but when I find interesting there is that debate around the meaning of uh old texts, right? So if we. If we could break it down simply as. Laying here one definition semiotically of old text is it's boring and irrelevant, right? So as you're saying, the whole purpose of the podcast is to make things relevant to relevant examples. And he's saying semiotically. Why? Like he's explained. Why put Monty Python still managed today? Will say it's interesting because it's old and the signify old has a signified of of unrelated boring. You know, kind of, you know, I guess. An interesting right? So that he's he's defining one level Monty Python as being 50 years ago, but they saying if it was black and white that that would have trapped it as a text that Semiotically would have been ancient, whereas because it just managed to get broadcast as colour came in, it's semiotically coded. You know, present world still like new.

Speaker

With ohh.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, not new, but still tight like of of of the modern era as opposed to the ancient era, right? Like I'm why ancient colour is that holding up, I think semiotically.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I I think I understand that don't mean. That was a lot Tom pack. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, I guess why doesn't matter. Ohh, I love those black and white.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Can get behind. Is is Monty Python still relevant today in the same sense that they're describing there, and I would say perhaps not with the digital era now transforming into the Internet era, it's a lot more snippets of Monty Python. Like, do people actually go and watch all of Monty Python now, or do they just watch the sure you know, the Black Knight and that and these clips here and they're always look on the bright side of life, you know? Like these, these classic moments, do they only look at that now? And.

CRAIG NORRIS

So I guess.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yes, broadly, I guess we need to accept that a Monty Python is still popular today.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

It is, yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

So I think they've they've, yes, they've said you look for example at the YouTube channel, which still has a huge number of views and so forth, so. While modes of engagement might have changed somewhat, the the Content store is unchanged in terms of like you watch some old content and think that's stated really badly, like the goodies for instance, right?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh I don't know.

CRAIG NORRIS

The racial politics, some of the goodies actually still.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I like the goodies.

CRAIG NORRIS

Holds up the world. Maybe early black and white. Doctor Who? I don't know. I mean the the the, I guess the idea of black and white verse colour as as as a reason of it I mean I guess you could still disagree which is why it's semiotically interesting where some people wouldn't see.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

You thing I I would. I would probably contend there's a lot of. Ohh I I think it it's got a lot to do with age and a lot of this sort of factoring in this sort of intersectionality with age and interpretation and meanings and defining things that are funny and what not to a particular group of people at a particular good point at time.

Speaker

Yeah.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Like the, I think they were mentioning about certain parts that some people laugh at certain bits that other people don't laugh at and. I I just come back to sort of more, I guess, meme culture today, and I have so many friends who are losing their mind around the the whole skippity moot.

Speaker

Hey.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. Meme and and I'm like you guys were going crazy about Shrek memes and and and all these other ones, which are equally as dumb. And before that, there were low cats and loling. Nathan.

Speaker 5

What?

CRAIG NORRIS

This has been one of the arguments around why Monty Python is still relevant today, that the type of comedy that we're delivering was absurdist.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, that it was quite nonsensical. Google and that's how it's avoided that feeling of being too dated, that that absurdity of it. The bizarre juxtapositions has meant it hasn't fallen into the trap of being, you know, racially or in a gendered sense, unprogressive and maintaining old stereotypes because heads for nature. It was absurdist. It was constantly putting the bizarre juxtaposition. There's one great sketch they had in that the article that's unpacking it later about police officer kind of just. Offering to go back home with this other guy again suggesting this kind of transgressive sexual politics. Just the absurdity. Of it, at the time managed for it to get a gun away with, but it's meant it's it's it's held up remarkably well, even if the performers themselves like I know John Cleese, for instance on record seems to have remarkably unprogressive attitudes to certain things. So it's interesting that the content that. They were created because of its absurdity. Has. Yeah, has been quite, quite held up.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, the absurdity and absurdist humour is such a interesting thing to unpack through, like semiotics and signs, and that because of how they're sort of subverted. And I guess challenged at times the codes and conventions are disrupted in ways that are. Played within I guess.

Speaker

Yes.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Interesting ways, yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, I think, yeah. And and again we can bring in other concepts later. Like. Sure. Who's, like, what have you got the preferred, meaning the contested meaning.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

A dominant rating and preferred reading.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yes.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, there's many different names for the same thing.

CRAIG NORRIS

All right, let's see if we can. Use another example and try to explain it through semiotics. So this is an example talking of memes which has been picked up from a film that the title headline on Kotaku is one of the weirdest movie moments of 2024 happened in a film nobody. Watched the subtitle being a bizarre scene from in Craven, the Hunter has mostly gone unnoticed, and that's a shame. And this was supposed to December, set 27th to 2024. Since this article has been posted, there's been more discussion about this particular scene. What we'll do is we'll play it now and we'll talk about why this scene seems to be so confusing, okay and bizarre, right? Semiotically, I guess the signified and signifier here seems to have broken down somewhat. Yeah, to create. Confusion. So just to explain what we're. Going to hear here. So this is a scene from the absolute bomb of a movie craving the hunter, which seems to have now been recognised as soon his worst effort in their superhero. Have you seen Craven the hunter? I wonder how many list go.

KENTARO

Have not.

Speaker

Not the bullet.

CRAIG NORRIS

To. But people say, yeah, it it worse than Morbius. You catch Morbius any of the men were.

KENTARO

I caught the memes, but I didn't. Catch the film itself.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, this is probably the only way people are gonna see anything that craving that. So in this scene we have the villain character who later on becomes the rhino. In this scene, he's still human. Now one of his henchmen has come into the room to inform a villain, the Rhino, that the other hand string of all been killed and they have been. Able. To get Craven and uh what is on page. I imagine on the script pages rhino is informed this and rhinos angry, however. In audio, what we'll hear is an odd expression of that anger. Visually, you'll see him perform a scream, but audio wise. So let's listen to this now.

Speaker 5

The Craven off hit failed all of our guys are dead.

CRAIG NORRIS

Sorry, excuse the laughter. That laughter was asked not from the movie. Uh, that gurgling sound was, uh, yeah, the sound that he made. I mean what we see here is the character screaming, right? So we see the mouth fully open. U rage on the face. But we hear a strangled gargle. Um semiotically. What's going on? An air Ashley.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh. Well, it what? What? It's clearly is that there is this breakdown between what the meaning of what should be going on in that same versus the this the I guess the signifier, the the component of the sound itself, like the the context behind it, this sort of signified meaning of anger and distrust and distress and everything that should be a menacing like growl of a. Anger and rage is challenged by this inconsistent sign, which is saying, like the gargling noises, I suppose this sort of signifier, which is just awful sound.

Speaker

Someone.

CRAIG NORRIS

It is look and at the time there was some discussion in fan forums about what's going on. There was it a production problem, was the actor delivering a take where they wanted to save their voice, and so they didn't do a full screen. Knowing that in post production they develop, it was one explanation of it, the other one being, you know, was this accidentally left in right to the editing? Just skip it and not edit that out. I from, from what I've read, since it appears to be the original performance was done silently, so it was a silent rage that the actor felt would be a novel way of communicating Emma. Rent and at the time, he said, the performance. A gonna pause. Got a sense of wow, that's really different. We'll we'll we'll go with that take then in post production it was decided to add sound and weirdly, the discussion isn't about why that sound is there. The actor just said and that was the sound that we went with in post production. And so, but it's it's so unusual. I'd better silent I felt.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

8. It would be so impactful, like if it was silent and like that whole scene.

Speaker

Ohh.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Is silent with just subtitles with. I'd like just that. Would be like weird in a way that I think would draw you in. This is weird in a way that makes you uncomfortable and not in a good way.

CRAIG NORRIS

It is interesting how to be picked up as as a meme, as a bit of thing that's been circulating on the Internet. It does remind me of the advisory cautionary tale that you can never really make a mean right? You can never really make a movie and say, OK, we want 5 means to come out of this movie. I've scripted them and created them and they will create memes. Cause you couldn't anticipate this one right? You couldn't say, OK, what we're gonna do is the strangled Google scream, and that will mean it. And it's like that. That will be the get forgotten about the laugh that but instead it just the oddity of it, the sense that it seemed to be a sincere performance and sincerely done unironically. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So the next quick example, we've only got 5 minutes left. Ohh Dang, I know time's going very quickly. I'm. I'm hesitant to play this one because. Things might not be able to set it up with all of now. Well this is 1. I mean, talking of mispronunciation where this is. This is an interesting one that actually mentioned ohh. I don't know if they have back to start. It's a scene I'll explain the scene afterwards.

Speaker

Cocaine NUM. This is if you.

CRAIG NORRIS

The one and only and swagger from what movies? This this is red heat, right? This is a movie where he's playing a Russian police officer and he's ripped off a prosthetic leg, pulled the plug out. Great special sound effects throughout that pulled the plug out and then tipped it outside to reveal all this white powder coming out. But he said cocaine mum.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

A teacher and and this is something you had first hand experience of. The confusion with.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. Well, I mean, you can go to all the comments and just see everyone commenting like cocaine and cocaine.

CRAIG NORRIS

And what not, just cocaine, but the pure element itself. Cocaine, Ian. Yes, it's it's an odd mispronunciation. And again, it's the confusion of semiotics, right? I mean, basically the amusement and the reason why there's a whole YouTube clip here called cocaine. Mum is is is a semiotic. Confusion. It's like, why has he not said cocaine? Why has he said cocaine? Does that mean something? What is the signifier signified here? So the yes. What is the signifier signified of cocaine?

Speaker

Ohh gosh.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Um, I I think I've just taken cocaine and like this this my brain is not not ready to answer a question this profound.

CRAIG NORRIS

This is a signifier is the physical thing, the, the, the.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. So the word cocaine them.

CRAIG NORRIS

The pain of this thing.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Perhaps you could also argue the cocaine itself is probably. Maybe the meaning behind it is the the cocaine, the drugs, the context in which it's being studied.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, yes, what it signified by this is it. Is it an Annie performance? Is the signified of Cohen anisah's.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I think I think we could probably get out that Arnie cannot speak Russian.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. But and and I guess that's what the YouTube poster underneath it it's it's all this kind of how witty can my signified be of the irony signifier?

Speaker

Cause yeah. Hmm.

CRAIG NORRIS

The only signifier is seen saying okay mum. And then getting a good, you know, the look, the top YouTube comment has 106,000 thumbs up and that's the one, not just cocaine, but the pure element itself, cocaine them. And that's a good signified comic reaction, right?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Well, I think that that like ratio shows a very signified signifier.

CRAIG NORRIS

Cause you're saying.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Relation that you get the the like the approving. I I agree with this and then the the you know the signified being, they have no idea what armies on about.

CRAIG NORRIS

Look, I mean, it feels like to be a good social media advisor. You need to know your semiotics, right? The whole you know, I mean, I mean the, the the, what is it, the rabbit hole of semiotics, right. Cause they're saying we could now unpack what we're looking at right now, which is what is the semiotics of the thumbs up. What is the semiotics of the 106 K for some people? Yeah. Is it just people jumping on a bandwagon? Is it a genuine democratic expression of a public sphere? Is it? Yeah, cause it's 253 replies underneath that as well.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Well, probably the easiest way to just sort of breakdown signs, signifier, signified, probably easier than my Pokemon card example is. Even. Just look at a giveaway sign that you see on the road. Many of you will probably driving listening to this um, you know the the sign itself the give way sign you've got the the signifier being you know the sign itself the the written word give way the trial.

CRAIG NORRIS

The letters.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So, and then the signified is depending on where you are in Hobart, just keep going. Um ohh if you.

KENTARO

The first the.

CRAIG NORRIS

Ashley does not represent edges.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh no, no, I'm not encouraging that. I'm just saying this is what it means. Apparently to some people, but the the approach that you should be doing is you're meant to ohh you know, slow down and be cautious because it's saying there's this sense of potentially oncoming truck to people.

CRAIG NORRIS

Even to a. We meant to come. Complete rest. I mean, you're piece yet. Kantara you so you meant to come to a complete stop at a giveaway sign.

KENTARO

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Or can you do a rolling stop? I think a rolling stops rolling.

KENTARO

I'm fairly certain you give give us.

Speaker

Yeah. Stop.

KENTARO

A rolling it. Is it's the stop sign.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah.

KENTARO

Is the the stop.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, I was told that when you get to a stop sign, you should say the letters STOP in your mind so that you've stopped sufficiently right for sufficient time.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh, that's actually really interesting.

CRAIG NORRIS

Isn't interested, I thought.

Speaker 5

Ohh yeah.

KENTARO

One doesn't seem much.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Ohh, we're gonna have all the. How would tips here and not yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

That's really semiotics. Isn't as soon as you start breaking down how to behave when you see a sign when you're driving, you're talking about, signifier and signified its. Yeah. And some people will be doing the wrong signifies.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, that will grab their own meanings. Or they just. Why would I won't necessarily know what the signified is, so they make it up themselves, which is what you shouldn't be doing if you're on the road.

CRAIG NORRIS

Which roundabouts? I think for people who have never driven through a roundabout must present that to them, right?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

The yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

If you've never encountered a roundabout before an international driver, you've come down to Australia from, I don't know, somewhere that doesn't have roundabout. It can't be very confusing as to, you know, who am I giving way to? You know what? What? What? What is this object? Yeah, I mean and it's a very different.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So cars are just some of the best when it comes to semiotics. You know, we have these flashing lights on one side. Of the car.

CRAIG NORRIS

Aye.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

What does that mean? You're you're indicating to go over a lane or you're pulling out.

CRAIG NORRIS

And and if you get it wrong. It's bad news.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah. And if you get it wrong, you get a situation like the Craven, the hunter, where everyone's like, what the hell are you doing?

CRAIG NORRIS

Cause yeah, actually, yeah. There there's there's a couple of YouTube channels which do look at. Yeah, those kind of crazy Rd reviews.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Uh, so defensive driving people all the way. Uh defensive driving is probably a good semiotic frame to have, right you, you you should be semantically defensive, right? There could be various meanings from a sign. Just because you feel that's the right meaning doesn't mean everyone shares that.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes, there are correct meaning for the road rules and the signs you should read up on it and go to the official learner guide if you're in doubt.

Speaker

You said.

CRAIG NORRIS

If you are looking for careers, or if you are looking how to drive a car better, probably doing a first year Humanities unified 1000 and.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

I would strongly suggest that and not just because it would probably give me more work, but yeah.

KENTARO

No.

CRAIG NORRIS

Where? I'm yeah. Now I'm really like I'm thinking maybe air traffic coordinator right, they need to get the semiotics down.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

Really well, pilots.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, well, there's also that.

CRAIG NORRIS

Um.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Hobart Airport has this beautiful thing. I've never seen any other airport, but they've got paddles for kids to put on a high, viz. Vests and just like table tennis paddles and they can like in the window like copy the other people's.

CRAIG NORRIS

Really, I've never seen that. Wow.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

You've got this. Yeah.

Speaker

Yeah.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

So there's this beautiful, like, semiotics of the the I guess the parallels between the paddle pop yeah, design versus the the incoming things. So you get this sort of parallels and the hygiene best what it means and the authority.

CRAIG NORRIS

Because you're directing where the claims guy.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

And because of where it's positioned you get this sort of sense that you're the one directing it in when. You I don't want to break any kids heart. You are definitely bringing it in. Parents, you you know.

CRAIG NORRIS

Fascinating. Well, there we go. Getting round to actually playing some real world uh links that semiotics that's been medium ownership for another week. Thank you, Ashley. Coming on.

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Thank you.

CRAIG NORRIS

Thank you Kentaro for providing the third year perspective or the to become third year this year perspective.

KENTARO

You must walk.

CRAIG NORRIS

And you can find out more about Media mother ship on YouTube or Twitch or on the website or on edgeradio.org.uk. Uh Ashley's work is up on your own web page, do you? Want it for me then?

ASHLEY REMMINGA

Yeah, I've I've got a web page. Just actually remember you can go there. You can go to YouTube to find the podcast. You can go to any podcast places, you know, whatever you like, whatever works for you. I don't get paid for any of that. So. So yeah, no, check it out wherever.

CRAIG NORRIS

So we'll think about semiotics over this week and continue to expand our horizons with more interesting. Media theory ideas in the new year. Coming up next. Probably just music.


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