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  • Writer's pictureCraig Norris

Unleashing WrestleMania’s Greatest Matches

Episode 75 - With host Craig Norris and special guest MC Dent.
First Broadcast on Edge Radio, 31st May 2024.


Join us as we dive headfirst into the ring to continue our discussion of Den of Geek’s epic compilation of The Best WrestleMania Matches of All Time. We’ll also grapple with the power moves of Netflix, exploring its seismic impact on the WWE universe. So lace up your boots, adjust your championship belt, and let’s pin down the pulse-pounding action!


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TRANSCRIPT

This is an AI-generated transcript of the audio and it may contain errors. We may update or correct this transcript in the future. Please contact us if you have any questions about the information in this transcript. The audio is the official record of this episode.


CRAIG NORRIS

All right, welcome to the Media mothership broadcasting out of ****** Luna Studios here in Hobart. TAS. On media mothership, we explore how media can shape our understanding of the world around us. I'm your host Doctor Craig, joined by MC Taylor Tent.

MC DENT

Close enough.

CRAIG NORRIS

I can, you know, I managed to mash up my typical co-host who's not here today. Taylor, with the first start of your. Maybe it's like a a kind of. One of those. Weird fan fictions.

MC DENT

I mean potentially it's could could maybe I've, I don't know, quantum leap, maybe tailors quantum leaped into my body. That's that's a terrifying thought.

CRAIG NORRIS

Jim. Because they relaunched quantum leap to kind of lukewarm reactions.

MC DENT

There's not. There's not many 80s shows that have been successfully.

CRAIG NORRIS

Footed as new shows. Yeah, Battlestar Galactica, which is kind of early 80s, yeah. That that kind of successfully managed to reboot although.

MC DENT

MacGyver did OK, didn't it?

CRAIG NORRIS

Ohh I I didn't even. I yeah, you're right. They did reboot MacGyver, but again, it doesn't seem to have captured the critical zeitgeist. I guess. Like I I. Maybe you're right. Maybe in terms of an audience reaction, I mean, I think it did have quite a few seasons. The 18 movie I quite liked, but it was one of those kind of movies where you could see they were going to spin it off into sequels, but they never got.

MC DENT

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

The the audience. But I I thought that that shaped up quite well the 18.

MC DENT

Movie. Also Hollywood. Really needs to stop casting Liam Neeson as Americans. Like I like Liam Neeson. He's a terrific actor. He's got a great presence, but just stop trying to hide the accent. It doesn't work. My favourite.

CRAIG NORRIS

Hollywood bit of news was the the kind of tongue in cheek joking between who was it the? Family Guy. Sharona and he made a joke that Liam Nielsen could never be in a Western. Because that Irish accent would never work in a Western and Lee Nelson caught him up and it was like. Oh. The film is ways to die in the West or something. It was the Seth.

MC DENT

Yeah. MacFarlane. Seth MacFarlane.

CRAIG NORRIS

Fallon. Yeah, and yeah, indeed. Lee Nelson isn't there with his Irish accent as a cowboy. And I, Luke warm reaction. I I have vague memories. Of watching it. But I'm thinking maybe I just saw it on YouTube as a condensed set of clips. These films it's like, I think I watched that as a. Condenser clips on. YouTube that's uncommented.

MC DENT

I find that's the best way to consume anything that Seth MacFarlane makes.

CRAIG NORRIS

Well, we are here to help you consume wrestling WWE little bit of WrestleMania. So as we're discussing today's exciting wrestling material with our expert MC Dent.

Speaker 4

Thank.

MC DENT

You gotta stretch.

CRAIG NORRIS

You've definitely seen more than. Those people I know and you're passionate, which counts for a.

MC DENT

Lot. I've been into it for like the last sort of like a year or so and trying to catch up on 40 plus years of history. Has been a challenge. Well, which is normally.

CRAIG NORRIS

The huge learning curve, right? I mean that early learning curve can be really exciting to to get into. Do shoot us a message SMS on 0488811707. If you do have any comments. Hopefully the audio is OK. I don't know. I'm hearing gremlins in my system. Your headphones, OK?

MC DENT

It's it reminds me of when you used to have, like, a mobile phone next to a dial-up Internet.

Speaker 4

Yes.

CRAIG NORRIS

Router, yes. Occasionally I'll get this weird. Not a prouder sound. Yeah, maybe that's the audio scape. I'm trying to create accidentally on today's show. Definitely. Gremlins in what? I've plugged into the edge radio equipment today. Because as people know, I try to stream on air as well as I'm streaming on YouTube and Twitch, so do feel free to jump into YouTube or Twitch as well if you'd like to comment. So without any further ado, you let's click over to the first topic. Yeah, with a bit of musical. Recharging there to signpost. We're doing the next topic now, which is a little bit of news. So wrestling news, I was trying to see what wrestling news is there at the moment. There's not too much probably to comment on what I've come across the the most salacious bit of news, of course, is yesterday the Department of Justice has now opened officially its investigation. And to Vince McMahon. And and WWE and the subheading there is the DG. Department of Justice just.

MC DENT

DOJ. Not not not the dog.

CRAIG NORRIS

Which they really miss that acronym. Possibility the department of. Grevy justice and.

MC DENT

I used to. I used to work in a call centre and we had a a specialist technical team so STT and eventually all of them got sacked except for one of them and I was like so now he's a specialist technical individual but that that that acronym did not catch.

CRAIG NORRIS

So it's not really a team. On so. That would be the what was the acronym?

MC DENT

It was the specialist technical individual.

CRAIG NORRIS

Ah. TI STI? Yeah, OK, that yeah lands tragically. So the DOJ is officially investigating the claims of a former WWE employee who accused McMahon of rape and sex trafficking. So yeah, this is, I mean, with these scandals news, of course with Trump's. Guilty verdict today? Yeah, it it feels like this is a it is. And I guess potentially the the kind of cancel culture. The idea of particularly figures of power, male figures of power. Old male figures of power being brought to account. Do you see this as part of it? Is this a? A great cleaning of house I know you've. Mentioned before. Who? Was at the son in law of Vince McMahon taking over and the sense that this is.

MC DENT

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

A whole new area.

MC DENT

Yeah, Paul, Avec also known as Hunter Hurst Helmsley, also known as Triple H when.

Speaker

Triple hinge.

MC DENT

At at WrestleMania 40, which was not long after McMahon essentially got pressured into resigning because of his, you know, accusations of sex trafficking also trickle warning. I'm sorry, we're probably a couple of minutes too late for that, but.

CRAIG NORRIS

That's true. Yeah. If you do have difficulties or or or concerns please. To Google.

MC DENT

Sir, take take care of. Yourself, yes. But regardless, so essentially a huge part of the build up to wrestle Mania 40 and a huge part about the the pay off of WrestleMania 40 is that it is the Paul Leveque era. Triple H is in charge of the of the booking now. People have been waiting a very long time for.

Speaker

Yes.

MC DENT

That's because without, because McMahon has not had any rivals for 20 years, so essentially he could do whatever he want. He had Carl Blonde, he didn't have to listen to fans and fans were getting very sick. Of the stories he was telling kind of.

CRAIG NORRIS

Game of Thrones. Dictatorship. Mediaeval feudal style. It's like you're either with me or against me.

MC DENT

And basically I mean. People have been fired for coughing near him. If people don't do exactly what he wants, he will fire them and he has made a lot of his a lot of the women on the roster do extremely degrading things, which he thinks are amusing for some.

CRAIG NORRIS

So again, it's it's a really interesting time to jump into WWE. I mean, the other bit of news, there's been polycon write an article about it recently and The Verge reader article recently about Netflix and the shift that Netflix has made into. Working with WWE and the the The Verge article is quite interesting as it talks about that complete contrast where Netflix initially set itself up as wanting to be like HBO, creating quality Golden Age. You know or. The the The the best TV possible. Cool, but this WWE. Shift is A is a. Real tonal change, it seems. Have you thought much about the Netflix WWE connection? Is this a really exciting way to engage with WWE at the?

MC DENT

Moment. I think it's a logical progression because wrestling has always been something that's viewed on cable television because essentially. If, if you're not paying to see it, then they're.

CRAIG NORRIS

Not making money is Australia. Netflix gonna get this I.

MC DENT

Believe so, it's with binge at the moment, but I would be very astounded if it was not moved to Netflix in Australia and I imagine it would be a worldwide shift. But this is this. Essentially, you know, shifts to what is the modern cable TV, I guess model which is streaming services, you pay to watch stuff on streaming services. So back in high school and I I my best friend was obsessed with wrestling. I didn't watch it cause I didn't have cable, but I heard all about it. All the stories, all the updates.

Speaker

Yes.

MC DENT

He'd literally like if he was, if he was king, in handball, he would start doing the dance that the rock does before he warms up the people's. So. So I knew. All that was happening, but I never saw any of it, and that's what's been interesting about getting into it quite recently because with reliving the war that series that I watched actually going back and reviewing all of the stuff from the late 90s, early 2000s, finally getting to see it, all the stuff that I've heard about and like, wow, this is this is.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

MC DENT

What it looked like?

CRAIG NORRIS

Fascinating because WWE WrestleMania. Is one of those spaces which, much like Star Wars, even if you've never watched Star Wars, it has almost so much into the culture that you, you you're kind of familiar with some of the the big names. Well and I I guess some of the big, big names are now. Transitioned into Hollywood. And have still brought part of their wrestling personality or they're discussed in terms of having been ex wrestlers like the rock. In fact, it was fascinating as someone that only really knew the rock host wrestling like in his his Hollywood career to here when he'd come back, you were talking last show two weeks ago when he was brought back into wrestling. And his his kind of the the discourse around rocks re entrance into wrestling. At one level, people saying kind of didn't go according to the script in terms of it seemed that the rock had said it some off as the hero or as this kind of, you know, celebrity and quickly the fans turned against him.

MC DENT

Yeah, he thought that he could just. Come back and become the main good guy of the company and. And challenge the main villain at Wrestle Mania, which is the the biggest live event of the year for WWE every single year when when the the fans historically despise it when part time is take opportunities that could be given to people who are on the roster every. The week and they've been building up that story with Cody Rhodes, who'd been, you know, the the face of the company for a little over a year as the as the main good guy. And he was wrestling every week. And they were very, very clearly telegraphing that he was going to win at WrestleMania against his, his, and his arch enemy Roman Reigns. And people were furious at the rock try to take that away from him.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah.

MC DENT

In real life and again because WWE, like all professional wrestling, the outcomes are predetermined, it's all staged, even though a lot of stuff that they do is exceptionally dangerous. It's all stage, but often there there's so much crossover between the storylines and also what happens in real life because. In the late 1990s, Triple H, the current head Booker and the rock were arch enemies. They they they were each other's biggest rival. And now that the two guys who are competing at the very top of running the business, so it's it's just because they both wanted different things were trying to push the product in different directions. It's just fascinating just the the, the, the extent to which art. It's imitated life, or rather, life is imitated art.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a fascinating convergence. I guess there of of so many. Yeah. Identities. I guess you got the celebrity identity, the kind of constructiveness of that. Then you've got wrestling itself, pro wrestling with the idea that, you know, people are also enjoying the the story that's coming out of these challenges. And then inevitably. Yeah, I mean, it's what must be so entertaining also about reading some. Of the news. Sources and information sources about wrestling, the kind of behind the scenes. Troubles or conflicts which are there which then add more flavour to the performed troubles which have which are happening. You've mentioned in the past some really useful sources. People can go to to start that homework on WWE. What are some of the sources you mentioned in newsletter?

MC DENT

For instance, yeah, the wrestling Observer newsletter, which has been it's operated for about 45 years now since the late 1970s. It's been written by Dave Meltzer the entire time. So Dave Meltzer, he is a. He's a sports journalist who specialises in combat sports, so mostly, even though we WWE isn't strictly Speaking of sport, it's a it's a performance, but he he covers that he's covered UFC and every single week he does the Wrestling Observer newsletter and he's very old school. He it took him until 2006 for it to transition into being online. But before that it was. It was paper and post really. You had to subscribe and he would post it.

CRAIG NORRIS

Out to you. Wow. And that was until 2.

MC DENT

1000 and 2006 and what's what's really fascinating is that most of most of it from sort of like 1990 onwards has been digitised and uploaded. So you can go back and see exactly what was happening in the world, not not only in the storylines behind the scenes as well, because he'd he'd go and he he had his inside sources. He's never named them, but he he has his sources to give him updates on how things are going. And yeah, he he you can not only can you see what was happening at the time in the business but also it's just fascinating. Seeing how he'd leave like a 1900 number that you had to call to vote on what your favourite match was in a pay-per-view or ask any questions. Or you could also fax in your favourite result.

CRAIG NORRIS

That old school audience participation? Yeah, getting polls going so much more difficult than today's, you know, Facebook poll. What's his current framework for creating polls and audience interaction?

MC DENT

Ohh it's all done. It's all done online so I don't think he has a huge amount to do with it because it's it's combined the Wrestling Observer newsletter has combined with figure. For weekly, which is, that's a website which has a podcast and various other. It has written reviews as well, but it's a lot more sort of multimedia than the rest of the Observer newsletter, which is, strictly speaking, a newsletter. They're they're called dirt sheets in the industry because you know their their newsletters have a whole bunch of insider gossip and dirt with what's going on, but they've they've combined together so you can find the rustling, observing newsletter on the the figure for online website Figure 4 online, not Figure 4 weekly. Sorry. Figure 4 online, which is named. After Ric Flair's signature submission hold. Rick. Rick Flair being one of why widely regarded as one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. Yes, and someone who really should have retired a long time ago because he rested until he was. He had his final match when he was 73 and. It's ancient. They they could look I with without being ageist. They could not use smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that he just did.

CRAIG NORRIS

Not look healthy, but still. I mean I I I I guess for the amount of beating a body like that has gone through.

MC DENT

Yeah, absolutely. But what's really interesting is that similar to film reviews, Dave Meltzer, when he's writing the Wrestling Observer newsletter, he'll give every match in a pay-per-view, a A rating out of five. And so there is a huge mystique around what he deems to be 5 star matches, the very best of the best and his reasons. Saying that they are five star matches.

CRAIG NORRIS

And what's any? Any particular things going on at the moment in that?

MC DENT

He's sort of gone through swings and roundabouts and that he was very sort of loathed to give out. Five star matches to WWE for the two there, there were no five star matches in 2000s. I think there were only three in the 1990s. Wow. And it it took until 2011 for them to get another five star match, which was one with oddly enough, with John Cena, who everyone says can't wrestle for toffee. He had a match with CM Punk who's who was an indie darling, and the fans have always loved him and that was that was the one of the one of the earliest money in the banks that people loved. But he's been giving out a lot of five star ratings in the last couple of years, especially to. All Elite Wrestling AW, which is at the moment WWE's only real competition in terms of North American.

CRAIG NORRIS

And that's a different.

MC DENT

Different brand altogether. Yeah, completely different brand. So what they did was Cody Rhodes, who is now the top guy with the WWE. He was his career, was floundering in the mid card. In WWE, he wasn't the the the main event by any stretch, so he left co-founded all at Wrestling AW, and they actually brought back a whole bunch of guys who'd been really big in the in the 1990s, during of the 2000s, during the Monday night wars. Including the commentators Tony Schiavoni, who was a huge one of the main commentators for Jim Crocker Promotions, and WCW in the 1980s, nineteen 90s and early 2000s, he's actually been working as a barista for Starbucks to pay the bills. And so he's back in as a, as a primary commentator. Jim Ross, who worked with WCW in in in the 80s in WWF, the then WWF for most of the 90s in the early 2000s. Wow, they they do commentary together, which is it's just terrific, just how much, how much passion they still. For it. And they brought back a lot of guys who had who had thought they retired. One of the biggest success success stories was Sting, who now the musician but a wrestler who he'd basically wrestled since the mid 80s till the till the mid 2010 and he avoided WWE for most of his career because he thought they would mismanage him. And lo and behold, he did a year and a half with him, and he lost almost all of his matches and then had to retire prematurely because of an injury. Ohh, but he came back in his early 60s, basically just to do a one off match as a member of the tag team and his partner, who was in his 20s, they. Basically just were sparring for funsies, at stings, home, home ring and his friend said. Why don't you just come back and do this again you. You're you're terrific. So he and and Sting is someone who, throughout his career, had always been in, in real life. He's he's quite he's a nice mellow guy, so he's completely unsuited to all the politicking that goes on. And he would get.

CRAIG NORRIS

Wow.

MC DENT

He'd lose titles, he'd have opportunities to. He'd had his Thunder stolen more times than you could possibly count. And what was really great about AW is running a W. Is that because it was people who'd sort of grown up watching him doing the booking? He was always treated. And as this highly respected legend of the. Thing and he didn't didn't lose a single match. More to the point, it's it's an unwritten rule that wrestlers always lose their final match to help their than their younger opponents look more impressive moving forwards. And he actually said I'm happy to go out on my back and you know, get pinned clean the ring and now you hey up you went. No, no, no, no. You are going out.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

MC DENT

As a champion, you are retiring undefeated in our company because you've been you've been messed over so many times. We want you to go.

CRAIG NORRIS

Wow. Out with some dignity, which is very rare as. You're saying it it?

MC DENT

Is becoming less rare. There have been a few instances quite recently where an older wrestler has has gone out on top which. Is there's some discussion about whether or not this is the correct decision. Another example that's happened quite recently was Stone Cold Steve Austin came out of retirement after 19 years to have one final match at WrestleMania 38 and against Kevin Owens, who's it's super popular. He's very, very stout but extremely acrobatic in the. The audience does really love him and he's really good at playing a heel he can. He can play a bad guy. Really well or a.

CRAIG NORRIS

Good guy. Really. Well, so the heel is the bad.

Speaker 4

And.

CRAIG NORRIS

Guy and the. Face yeah, you choose.

MC DENT

The good guy, although it's not even, it's not even the good guys and bad guys. You. You're expected to Boo heels and cheer faces. So sometimes you've had really higher self righteous dudes as heels and like lovable anti.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yes.

MC DENT

Anti villains as as faces. But essentially, the story that I was telling because it was happening in the match with that WrestleMania that year was in Texas, Stone Cold Steve Austin is a is a is very well known as being a Texan. He is nicknamed the Bionic Redneck. And so basically the story there was that Kevin Owens essentially picked a fight with all of Texas and salted it non stop in the build up because you know it's extremely nationalistic.

CRAIG NORRIS

Oh wow.

MC DENT

And he's Kevin Owens is French Canadian. So essentially the story they built up him goading this old hero out of retirement. There was simply no way that he could have won that, and it not ended a huge backlash. But everyone, basically everyone. Now and again the the 4th wall is so fragile it's so strange, but he ended up getting Kevin Owens got a huge amount of respect even though he got he he lost that match, he got a tonne of respect because. He's basically the only person who cause Austin has a a tonne. Of. Injuries he had to retire at 38 cause of a neck injury and Owens ended up getting a tonne of respect for not only being the only person who Austin trusted enough to work with. But also how he managed to make a guy in his late 50s with who whose knees at this point are essentially. Yeah, look, really impressive and look really strong from the way he was faking into like taking bumps and like acting injured really. So basically, even though he lost the match, he got over when, when, when the audience likes you, it's called getting over. He got over with the audience as a hero, as a, as a performer because he done such a good job making Austin look like $1,000,000.

CRAIG NORRIS

Wow. Wow again. Yeah, cause a lot of that's lost when you watch a movie and you. See. A stunt man? Yeah. Doing something similar for the, you know, the actor. Make the act all good. On that, that. That particular show. But the stunt man's efforts are often forgotten. Lost. It's interesting that in wrestling, the literacy around making the other guy look good by appropriately reacting in pain or taking a blow more dramatically than it seems. Yeah. In fact it was. Hilarious to see when you were talking about. How that can also be overdone? Deliberately as well, that was the. Hulk Hogan match match here.

MC DENT

Yeah. Ohh yeah. Shawn, Shawn Michaels versus Hulk Hogan at summer slam. I think it was in 2004, was supposed to be a trilogy where they each won a couple of matches. I don't know who the ultimate winner was supposed to be, but Hulk Hogan reneged on that and just decided. Let's just do one match and I'm gonna win it. And so Shawn Michaels was described. By 1 reviewer as a human slinky. Basically just bouncing all over the ring and it's it's very fondly regarded. As a performance, but everyone agrees it's a terrible match, but it's impossible to watch it without bursting out laughing. Some of the best slapstick you'll ever see.

CRAIG NORRIS

And again, again, that that kind of literacy and understanding of the wrestling mechanics pays off. Yeah, because of. Yeah. Not only seeing how, you know, a a good defeated wrestler. That's scripted to be defeated. Can can. Perform that really elegantly, but also. So if it's, if it's done overboard in a knowing way, I guess to themselves, maybe. I mean Hulk Hogan wouldn't have been in on that in terms of like, you know that that would have been something that was kind of deliberately politically done to set up the the ridiculousness of the.

MC DENT

Visibly angry throughout the.

CRAIG NORRIS

Hogan to Oakland was. Aware. Ohh yeah, halfway through the.

MC DENT

Well, because Sean Michaels is trying.

CRAIG NORRIS

You're not selling it.

MC DENT

To in, in real life, it's like let's let's call them by their real names. I mean, Michael Hickenbottom Hickenbottom was trying to humiliate Terry Belia. It's not so much.

CRAIG NORRIS

In his personal yeah, it.

MC DENT

Was extremely personal in real life.

Speaker 4

Right, right, right.

CRAIG NORRIS

Wow. And that's the kind of match that you'd go. I I you, you'd start to dig in further about what was the politics leading up to that. What's the fallout afterwards, which is where these newsletters, youtubes, channels will be rewarding to engage with. And where did you hear most of the information about that match from?

MC DENT

Yeah. Mostly from the dirt sheets, but also also from surprisingly good resource for wrestling information is TV tropes.

CRAIG NORRIS

TV tropes, right?

MC DENT

Which is a website that. Pardon me, it is a website that collects storytelling information. Storytelling devices, but it's got a huge amount of detail about professional wrestling.

CRAIG NORRIS

Because normally like you type in like Game of Thrones or something and then it will break it down in terms of you know, here's all the tropes that Game of Thrones has exploited or used, you know, damsel in distress and then it will link all these other media. But wrestling is also incorporated with sophisticated cliches and kind of.

MC DENT

Storytelling devices.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. So you'll you'll dip into TV tropes, yeah. How granular is? It can you look at particular. Wrestlers and matches or.

MC DENT

Absolutely. There's only a few that have a few matches that have their own page that most like all the really big wrestlers, have their own pages. The big pay per views have their own pages. There's like evaluations of, like, best like awesome moments. So TV shows like things are awesome. Moments like something happens really cool. Funny moment happens, really funny. Heart worm moment thing that makes you feel more warm and fuzzy. And tearjerker, which is like really sad. Moments and they they have a tonne of those as well because it's it's it's there are there have been a lot of moments in wrestling that were deliberately done to try and get that emotional reaction out of.

CRAIG NORRIS

The audience. So if you wanted to create a wrestling character yourself, heading to TV tropes and seeing how some of the effective wrestlers have basically exploited these cliches and and. Perform them well. Because does it. Also link to or or indicate the the best matches that that wrestler did that perform that particular troupe.

MC DENT

Or yeah, most of them. Most of them will. So if if you go to the awesome moments page, a lot of them will. So for Ricky, Steamboat for one.

CRAIG NORRIS

Brains.

MC DENT

And who's not? He's not a he's not a household name, but he was a very big face in the 80s that talks about the high quality of a lot of his matches cause he had what is called the the Holy Trinity by especially by fans of the Wrestling Observer newsletter, because he and Ric Flair had had three matches in the first half of 1989 and all three of those got five star ratings. I'm Dave Meltzer for the the Wrestling Observer newsletter.

CRAIG NORRIS

Wow, which, as you say, yeah, is is huge accolades.

MC DENT

Yeah, and but the the really frustrating is that Rick Flair said I think the matches that we had in the 70s were better, but they weren't recorded, so. Is that whole what if thing?

CRAIG NORRIS

Fascinating. Fascinating. All right, so let's have a look now at shifting onto the the main topic of today's I'll, I'll just. Yeah. Yeah. Remind us our audience that yes. So two weeks ago we were looking at some of the really interesting matches. This is from den of geek. This is from an article they put together the best WrestleMania matches of all time.

MC DENT

We'll be right. Back.

CRAIG NORRIS

So what I want to have a look now. We were at I think.

MC DENT

Number number no, no, we're, we've done #9 interrupting number, right. And the thing about the thing about WrestleMania is that WrestleMania is essentially the climax of most few.

Speaker

All.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. So.

MC DENT

So for a lot of WrestleMania matches, the actual the emphasis is more so on the story than the actual quality of the in ring action. So they they will sometimes train you things quite often. The really, really good matches might be something like summer Slam or Survivor Series because people are more invested in the and there's always. There's always almost always outside. In a wrestle Mania match, because it's all about the story and it will be no disqualification and someones friend will come out with a steel chair and pop the other. Guy over their head.

CRAIG NORRIS

So and this is so this is the end of the year these these are. And even I knew the branding WrestleMania from. Way back with WWF. So this has been one of these. Perennial big branded moments. Yeah. So I'll play a little intro here from this is what is this Daniel Bryan versus Batista versus Randy Orton?

MC DENT

Yes, the triple threat Main event match from WrestleMania 30.

CRAIG NORRIS

Triple threats. Why? Why there are three there. Are three wrestlers in this?

MC DENT

3 wrestlers in this one? Yes, OK. It was supposed to. It was originally supposed to be just Batista and Randy Orton, but the fans got behind Daniel Bryan in such a huge way. McMahon and the other creative guys had no intention of using him, but the fans cheered for him so much and booed everyone who wasn't him, they. Had no choice. Well.

CRAIG NORRIS

Let's hear some of that cheering.

Speaker 4

Well, no. Randy York going to that place.

Speaker

Right.

Speaker 4

And in New York City, but since.

CRAIG NORRIS

So what we're watching here? What? Is what is the the drama that's unfolding?

MC DENT

The drama that's unfolding is that whoever gets the pin will be the. I believe this was the Undisputed championship. And so the main story is. Because it's 1V1V1, there's no teams in this, and the story is because the main the main point of view character is Daniel Bryan, who's a smaller guy. He's not particular. He's he's like he's not. The kind of monster or superhero that I'd normally go to cause Vincent Mann when he was in charge for the those 38 years, 39 years, colossal fan of muscle bound superheroes. He always went with big guys and Daniel Bryan is not a big guy. Like he's obviously very athletic.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

MC DENT

I was trying to say. Aesthetic, but it's like it's. More, more, more athletic than aesthetic because he's like a bit more alive. And so essentially we're seeing here it's it's all about him having to come overcome so many obstacles to get to the main event because this was his second match of the night. The first match he had to fight against Triple H who was Triple H but it's ironic that someone who is so celebrated. Right now, for the weight directions leading the company in was for many years the main essentially the the main or the second main villain of the entire story. Wow. Triple, Triple H has always worked best.

Speaker

Hello.

MC DENT

And he's been the main heel that the that the faces have to overcome really. Here there are a couple of times we tried to make himself the main character and he's been he's been referred to as the the reign of Terror. He's got a he's he was very well known for being extremely jealous of anyone who might threaten this spot in real. Life and so people he, if any, if he thought anyone might take his attention or his spotlight, then he would just bury them and try to crush.

CRAIG NORRIS

And make them look weak. And I noticed in the crowd there was an Australian flag. Is there much international fandom that come to these events with flags and so forth and so?

MC DENT

I I could not tell you what the numbers are, but people will travel from all over the world to go to WrestleMania.

CRAIG NORRIS

So here we have. SO22 belts yes.

MC DENT

I believe it was. It was the World Heavyweight Championship. I think it was a. Belt unification. I I haven't seen this one and I I I can't according to it off my head, I did know some of the stories around it and and essentially his fandom was called the Yes movement because of his habit, habit of pointing out both fingers up in the air up and down going. Yes, yes. And the, the, the the audience will chant yes with. Him. That's positive.

CRAIG NORRIS

Alright, so the number 71. Is Bianca belair. Versus Sasha Banks and and we covered Bianca. Bellaire. Is she the?

MC DENT

Bianca Bel Air is at the moment one of the main tag champions, but she's she's a terrific performer. She has really long braided hair that she and she weaponizes her hair like she'll let people.

CRAIG NORRIS

With it. So this is Western mania 353737. Alright. Yeah. We're thankfully wrestle Mania 37 coronation of Bianca. Fulfilled the potential of what a WrestleMania main event should be. These two put on what might still be wrestlemania's greatest women's match ever. There's an awesome story about how the two overly confident women butting heads on one side. It's Sasha realising that she's up against and becoming increasingly frazzled and frustrated on the other side, Bianca is able to get under Sasha's skin. But the that only makes her overconfident and susceptible to letting her guard down. Not to mention there is a lot of awesome offensive and defensive use of bankers breed. As you're saying, right, including when it culminates in a thunderous whip from the hair that signals how amazing how this amazing belt belt is all but over. Yeah.

MC DENT

And this was, yeah, and yeah, 37 was the year where there was no one in the audience.

CRAIG NORRIS

Really. Ohh right, because.

Speaker

There's a.

CRAIG NORRIS

COVID. Right. Right. Right. Sorry. We're jumping from 1:00.

MC DENT

Yeah, that's a good nothing. Ohh yeah. Royal Rumble 2022 and the Royal Rumble is it's such a big part of the build up to WrestleMania because it it it it it.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah.

MC DENT

Whoever wins the Royal Rumble gets to challenge for whatever title they want at Mania.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. Right. Wow, is this match that has much discussion of you jumped in to watch this one or?

MC DENT

I haven't seen this one either. I haven't seen a huge amount of stuff from the the 10s or the early twenty 20s. I I I I really should go back and watch this one because Bianca Belair is doing great stuff as A tag team champion right now. And Sasha banks? She ended up jumping ship to AW and I don't think she was getting treated particularly well.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. All right, so this next one looks like A1 even I would know Steve Austin versus the rock. In WrestleMania 14/19/19 G. OK, yeah, you're right. XIX. It's not XIV. Yes, XIX.

MC DENT

This is this is the. The third installment in their WrestleMania trilogy.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. So. Let's skip through this, alright?

MC DENT

There's there's some serious back story to this one because.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

Speaker 4

As any human being could ever be.

MC DENT

So essentially, the night before WrestleMania 19. So, so essentially stone Cold Steve Austin had a horrible injury in 1997 where he got dropped on his head and and.

CRAIG NORRIS

That's horrible. That's. I mean, that's one of that's like. Concussion and and vertebrae damage.

MC DENT

And yeah, it it I think. It brews 2 of. His to like Spinal Ohh part of. His spinal column and he got dropped on his head.

CRAIG NORRIS

And did he? Still had to do more.

MC DENT

Yeah, he saw he actually like, he's actually said that the first he thought it was Christopher Reeve.

Speaker

Alright.

CRAIG NORRIS

Ohh my gosh.

MC DENT

He basically had just enough energy to like mine, knocking the other guy over and pinning him so he won the won the. Match, but oh really? So he had to. He still had to finish the match. Yeah, but he had. To get dragged. Out by 4 referees.

CRAIG NORRIS

And this still gets choreographed right. And so this is one of these. Moments that that breaks that illusion of it's safe and actually shows you that that sometimes actually real damage can occur.

MC DENT

The ultimate horror of it is that his opponent Owen Heart because it was a pile driver, which is you hold the other it upside down. You you pretend to smash his head in the into the floor. It's perfectly safe if you land on the knees. But Owen Hart landed on his rear and Austin kept on saying please land on your on your knees so that I don't have my head smashed in the in the mat and Hart said, no, no, no. I'll I'll, I'll, yeah, I can do it. And so he lands on his rear and smashed his head into the mat, which completely, completely changed Austin style and led to a series of he had to. He took a year off to get spinal fusion surgery.

CRAIG NORRIS

Ah.

MC DENT

One point, but he basically was a really great technical wrestler and then had to go for basically full time brawling because his body couldn't handle it.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

MC DENT

So now the Mania 19 match against the rock he's dealt with creative burnout. He's dealt with all these horrible injuries. His knees are just shot to pieces. He's got back problems and neck problems and to deal with all this stress, he's been drinking tonnes of caffeine. He's been drinking way too much alcohol and he's actually been hospitalised the night before. Uh.

CRAIG NORRIS

What?

MC DENT

Because he, he said, what he had was essentially an anxiety attack. Times 1000, he was gonna have a heart attack and he wasn't medically cleared to, to wrestle, but he he beaten the rock in the encounters at 15 and 17, he said. I owe it to the rock. I had to go out there and lose the rock because the, the, the, the rock story at that point was he was. Hollywood rock. He was a healer, though that the WWE was beneath him and his story was he was obsessed with beating Stone Cold Steve Austin at WrestleMania.

CRAIG NORRIS

So at this point the rock had of course previously has been in the. Was the money three CG 2?

MC DENT

There's got mummy. Mummy, too. Yeah, mummy return.

CRAIG NORRIS

And that was, I guess, the big breakout.

MC DENT

Yeah, well, so also welcome to the.

CRAIG NORRIS

Jungle welcome. Yeah. And then, yeah, you had him leave. So is this before or after? Welcome. To the jungle, it's.

MC DENT

It's a it's a little bit after. Because I believe that was like 2002 and this was a year or so after.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. Yeah. And his performance, that was great. I love that movie. Welcome to the jungle. OK, so this is after.

MC DENT

That, yeah. So they're, they're, they're both leaving. So Austin's gotta retire cause he's so banged up. And the rock's gonna go and be in Hollywood. And so this this story is very much the end. This the story of the match is that it's the very end of their rivalry. The rock is obsessed with getting his win in and Stone Cold knows that it's over. And he throughout the throughout the match, Stone cold does not look healthy. He at the start his eyes are all glazed over and he sort of breathing through his mouth and it's like he just doesn't look like he should be there.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

Speaker

OK.

CRAIG NORRIS

What's the kind of post action report on this? I mean the the dirt papers, how have they impact this in terms of like the rock?

Speaker

Ohh.

CRAIG NORRIS

You what? What? He was going into at this point, like, even though this was happening the night before he.

Speaker

The rock, the.

CRAIG NORRIS

Was in hospital.

MC DENT

Rock 110% new because you can see that he's very careful not to injure Austin. In fact, most of the matches, it's them, just them trading each other's finishing moves. So it's largely based around finishing moves and.

Speaker

Which will look.

CRAIG NORRIS

Great on TV.

Speaker

Yeah.

MC DENT

Yeah, but so he actually at the very end of the match, after Austin's been pinned and. It takes three rock bottoms to to put Austin down for good, and people have said that politics for it. But it's it's the climax of a rivalry they've been going for six years at this point, so it was it's it. It takes a lot to put Austin down to the count and at the end of it, the rock puts his head next to Austin said, and whispers something. Austin wishes something back and he never said what it was until quite recently on an Instagram post, the Rock said. Because his rivalry with Stone Cold Steve Austin is what it's part of what elevated him? It does tend to get overblown a bit in, in hindsight, a lot of revision at his revisionist history. It did help elevate the rock, but it wasn't the only thing that did. It did give him his first main event in Rust, mainly 15, but basically what rock said to Stone Cold was. I cannot thank you enough for everything that you've done for me. I love you and Stone, Cold said. I love. Me too. And and Stone Cold's actually talked about that. He's actually said.

CRAIG NORRIS

What's you jerker?

Speaker 4

Two Thomas guys out there front of millions of people saying loved each.

CRAIG NORRIS

Other and again, yeah, this would be on TV troops and it would. Break down with the.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Troops, in retrospect.

MC DENT

Tear jerker and. Yeah, because in in, in the story, rock and Austin. They've never been friends, they've always been enemies. So for them to break character like that and as they walk off, they walk off and rock hugs his family. He turns around and he basically gives a nod of approval to Stone cold. And then as as stone cold is leaving, they play his music as well.

Speaker

Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Listening.

MC DENT

Which is so rare.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. So both Steve asked.

MC DENT

Normally it's. So normally they only play the, normally they only play the winners music. But as as stone cold is leaving they they play his music as well because that he knew that was gonna be his last match cause he couldn't. He couldn't keep on. Competing with his injuries. But he did stay on on the show for another year as as general manager after that, but. It's interesting that the shows 19 cause generally people think that 17 is the best match.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. Yes. Yeah. On this ranking, they've given this one as the number.

MC DENT

Yeah. It's no, it's the number. It's a number six slot. And yeah, though WrestleMania 17 has an ending that is.

CRAIG NORRIS

Number six.

Speaker

Yeah.

MC DENT

Just truly terrible.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. Well, he says, yeah, this is going to be a controversial choice. Stone cold and the rock mixed it up. Three different wrestlemanias with WrestleMania X 717 usually receives all the love. It's a great main event for sure, but the booking around. It is iffy. And it doesn't quite hit the landing, especially with the Texas crowd refusing to play along with Steve Austin, he'll turn.

MC DENT

Because at the end of May Year 17 cause Stone cold story after coming back from having a year off for spinal fusion was that he'd lost his top spot to the rock and he was desperate to get it back. He had.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

MC DENT

To win that. Championship so he and in real life. Steve Austin just likes playing a bad guy, and even though he's been a face for, he's been a face for a solid 444 years at that point since.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

MC DENT

But he basically insisted on turning heel. So.

CRAIG NORRIS

And the local Texas crowd just didn't.

MC DENT

It was. It was not a good idea because Vince McMahon comes out, he pulls the rock off Austin when rocks trying to pin. He gives Austin a chair. Austin literally hits the rock 16 times, the steel chair and he turns heel in his home state and joins. This man was Austin's arch enemy. So he turns heel in his home state and then joins his art. Jeremy and this basically that, that and WC that happened and WCW closed that same week and that killed that ended the boom period. That was the attitude era because people didn't want to see Austin as a bad guy. They're just and really because the rock was leaving for Hollywood, there wasn't a main hero to cheer for. So basically people switched off in droves.

CRAIG NORRIS

Wow. So it then goes on to say that As for wrestle Mania 50. I mean, it was also solid that existed. There's a little more than a pleasing catharsis in Austin regaining his title after a year of Vince McMahon messing with him as you've.

MC DENT

Said yeah, rock rocking Mania 15 is more he's more of a henchman than his own. So their.

CRAIG NORRIS

3rd and final meeting, which we just talked about was special in its own way, feeling like a genuine end of an era, unlike the Undertaker versus Triple H match. In Wrestle Mania 10/15/18, thank you 28.

MC DENT

28.

Speaker

Which?

CRAIG NORRIS

Felt self important. Austin's body was falling apart and this would be the last match for nearly 20 years. The rock had a foot out the door, but despite all his great accolades, he still felt empty due to his inability to beat. Austin, at the showcase of the. Rules that added to the emotion of the match, giving us an ending that really felt like Austin had exhausted. Every little bit. Of fight left in him so that both he and the rock could move on with their lives. So he came back. Austin came back in 20.

MC DENT

Years time he came back for Rosemary 38, which was 2022, and he came back for. One he had a match against Kevin Owens we talked about earlier. He had that at the end of night, one which is part. It's basically like it's a huge and safest. There's nothing new he. Just hits all.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

MC DENT

All of his old moves, although there is a bit there is a bit where he gets suplexed onto concrete in the middle of the crowd and you watch. That you like this. This. Man is almost 60 and it's astounding, but it's also partially a just a a huge commercial for his broken skull American lager, because the amount. The amount because he cause like Stone Cold's main his main post match things like his entire personality is he drinks beer and beats up his boss. That's his entire personality.

CRAIG NORRIS

Any. He released a brand of beer.

MC DENT

Yeah. So he's got now got.

CRAIG NORRIS

What is it called the?

MC DENT

Broken it. It's called Broken Skull after his after his ranch cause he owns a ranch cause he just. What else is he gonna do with his time? He owns it, runs a ranch now and post and he. So they've got an IPA, a logger. And I there's also broken Skull IPA, which is somehow different, but it basically throughout it he's just.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah.

MC DENT

Throwing back cold ones and at the end of it, and the way that he drinks beer the way he drinks beer is hilarious. He'll hold the beer a solid foot above his mouth and crush it out of the literally squeeze it out of the can, and he gets it all over himself so he doesn't drink it and get absolutely tanked. He literally goes through about it. He literally spills about a case.

CRAIG NORRIS

See.

MC DENT

Into his mouth and doesn't present any of it.

CRAIG NORRIS

This is in during a match.

MC DENT

This is usually it's his post match celebration. He'll he'll get the beers out, but he he's drinking throughout the match and he's actually said it was because he had really dry mouth cause he was like so unused to that level of physical exertion. He weaponizes at one point like he takes it and then spits.

CRAIG NORRIS

I see, right? Yeah.

MC DENT

It all over her own. It's disgusting.

CRAIG NORRIS

Ohh my gosh. All right, so #5 is Razor Ramon versus Sean Michaels.

MC DENT

Oh, this one, this one? This is the first ever ladder match at a WrestleMania event.

CRAIG NORRIS

So. And what does a letter match mean? So that's when.

MC DENT

So the story here is that Sean Sean Michaels throughout the 90s, which is this this angry, bitter brat essentially was a huge prima Donna, and he'd never he would never lose a belt in a match. He would fake an injury or he would say that he.

Speaker

Well.

MC DENT

Depression and and just drop it. And so he or he'd be stripped of the title and so he he he forfeited the Internet continental because the intercontinental belt is it's one you have in the middle of. The card right? So. So you can have a championship match, but like halfway through the show and so he dropped it and his good friend, Scott Hall, whose character was Razor, Ramone ended up. Winning it off another wrestler and then Sean Michaels comes back from an injury and goes I'm the real intercontinental champ. I never lost it, so they have two intercontinental belts suspended. Rubber ring and you've gotta climb up the ladder and whoever grabs both is the winner. Yep.

CRAIG NORRIS

Really. And is that a you idea to bring a letter into cause? As we can see, that letter gets weaponized. It gets kind of thrown around.

MC DENT

They had a lot of matches in Japan. I believe they may have had some in sort of like Lucha Libre or maybe.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right. Really.

MC DENT

N.W.A, But this is the this is the it's only the second or third one because they they practised a a ladder match at a house show and untelevised between Michaels and Bret.

CRAIG NORRIS

Hart, just to see how much damage the letter does, how can be used and and seem more dangerous than it is because obviously it looks super dangerous and obviously they're selling the.

MC DENT

Yeah. Yeah.

CRAIG NORRIS

Pain really strongly.

MC DENT

Yeah. And so yeah, essentially you've got to climb the ladder, grab the grab, whatever, whatever at. The top, they they. They they always have more than one ladder these days because there's only one ladder here and there's there are a couple times where it buckles under the weight of two really big dudes. And if if they broken it, did they have a?

Speaker

Ah.

MC DENT

Spare ladder that they could use, right? What would they?

Speaker

What we're.

MC DENT

They've done, but this is the they're both great performers, but this has been Shawn Michaels is one of the best ever and this has been described as Sean Michaels has a fight because this is a 5 star match. According to the. Resting, observing newsletter. Gotcha. Alright and it's been described by Rick Flair as Sean Michaels has a 5 star match with the ladder and also also Razor Ramon is in the. Ring.

CRAIG NORRIS

It's a razor. Ramone doesn't really.

MC DENT

He's basically the straight man. It's it's all Sean because Sean Michaels is the bad guy. And Razor Ramon, who's basically this rip off of Tony Montana from Scarface. He's he's the good guy and it's basically just Sean, does all these insane stunts like he jumps off the jumps off the ladder to do a splash onto a.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

Speaker

Oh.

MC DENT

Ramone. He gets whacked with the ladder, gets catapulted into the ladder. Does all this ridiculous stuff gets tangled up in the ropes? At one point. It's just him just doing his usual cause. Shawn Michaels is an extremely airborne performer because like. He's big, but he's not super heavy, so he could do a lot of very late floaty moves.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. And as you're saying with one letter, it gets really damaged. That letter gets really damaged and but they still have to use that letter to get it. Even though the letter is becoming more and.

Speaker

Yeah.

MC DENT

More insecure. Yeah. Look like we're watching it right now. Look at it wobbling. That's just that looks so unsafe.

CRAIG NORRIS

Yeah. Yeah. So this is again five star match. Yeah, you would agree in its ranking.

MC DENT

And the the, the, the most the one of the oddest things about it and. Again, that really fragile 4th wall is. That raise your. Own one Sean Michaels lost that match, but everyone is so enamoured with Shawn Michaels performance they just they forget that he's only lost that match.

CRAIG NORRIS

Sure.

MC DENT

Because his performance is so good.

CRAIG NORRIS

Wow. Yeah, as so the the adequate act goes on similarly to point out that you know, it got huge spotlight the the letter, the two proceeded to work their ***** off, laying down the groundwork for dozens of other letter based matches in the decades that follow. WWE even organised a rematch between the two a year and a half later in summer Slam 95, but it was nowhere near as good as the first hard hitting clash between the Heartbreak Kid and the bad guy that did run long enough to Bump A10 man tag match off the show.

MC DENT

Yeah, they ran overtime. And so these ten guys who were supposed to be. In the tag match, it was going to be the biggest payday of the year and they completely. Doubt. And there was a story about Macho man Randy Savage storming backstage, absolutely furious. And he says to Scott Hall and Shawn Michaels, he says, look, I want to say that you both did really good work out there, but you're both very, very.

CRAIG NORRIS

Selfish. Wow. So does this often happen? Where? A whole. But according because this would have been a chore. Graft complex bit of work that then never got aired look.

Speaker 4

That.

MC DENT

That's the things like at that point in time in the mid 90s, wrestling was very much called on the fly. So like they were largely improvised like guys would work together before a match. They they plan out the major spots but. A lot of it's caught in the ring where they just whisper to each other when they're in headlocks and such.

CRAIG NORRIS

Right.

MC DENT

But yeah, so they basically 10 man tag match just didn't happen.

CRAIG NORRIS

This ten match tag mat.

MC DENT

Because these guys ran over.

CRAIG NORRIS

And and all that remains is the kind of. Yeah, the the dirt rags talking about how later, you know, the complaints that, that, that then leak out and yeah, well, well, well, look, you're 5 two. So sadly we'll we'll, we'll we'll wrap it up at. Where are we #5.

MC DENT

So we got four more.

CRAIG NORRIS

To go four more to go, but it is exciting and again it's worth checking that out the den of. The top ten and obviously they're all linked to some excellent YouTube. In fact, I I was. It was interesting to watch the razor Ramones from Michaels one because that's actually an interview. Well, like it's. Their reaction? Shot so it's. Not it's got Shawn Michaels and Razor Ramon now, watching that clip reacting. To it so.

MC DENT

Yeah, this was a couple of years ago, Scott Scott Hall passed away from, I think it was pneumonia, a couple.

CRAIG NORRIS

Thanks. Of years ago cause it must be really entertaining to go back or to to to bring back these stars or these performers and get them to react to some of these. Amazing. Wrestling matches and and and the the the. I guess the NDA's have gone now and they've talked really freely about about how it had gone down. Anyway, so fantastic as always Marcus and looking forward to in the near future, hopefully doing the last four it's immensely.

MC DENT

No, absolutely.

CRAIG NORRIS

And if you are interested in wrestling, where do you go to get your wrestling? Fix is it?

MC DENT

Just Bing, you can stream like literally all of WCW and all of WWE is on binge everything. That that company owns. You can watch on binge every every episode of Raw, every said Nitro, every pay-per-view, AE, WI I've tried to watch that, but it's very difficult to get it all in the one place or if you wanna watch reviews, wrestling with regret is really. Good wrestling with Brett, that's a. The YouTube channel? Yeah. Or he'll break like the Brian Zane who is also a retired wrestler. He'll break down pay per views or like, what makes a good wrestler? And if you want to watch a whole bunch of older, like recaps of older stuff, wrestling bio. Really, in the war is great because it contrasts the episodes of WWF RAW and WCW Nitro that air at the. Same time slot and then follow up with.

CRAIG NORRIS

The TV tropes then follow up.

MC DENT

With TV tropes and and and.

CRAIG NORRIS

That's that is a genuine surprise. I love TV tropes and I I underuse it as a resource and now knowing that wrestling's in there, what doesn't? TV tropes have. Well, thanks again for listening. Keep listening to Edge, Radio 99.3 FM Keep Unlimited is going for breaks, so there'll be some great. Radio tunes and then. After that at. Six is Adrian. So you can't sit down, Marcus. Thank you very much for. Joining us. Thank you for.

MC DENT

Having me, it's always a pleasure.

CRAIG NORRIS

And this will be meeting mothership for another.


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